If you think Evolution occurs at random, then you obviously do not understand Evolution at all.
Intelligent Design
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If you think Evolution occurs at random, then you obviously do not understand Evolution at all.
Indeed, look at the notion of God, who seems to be "conspicuously" missing.
So now your argument "God exists because there is no evidence that he doesn't"?
Ever consider that time is more of an effect? Similar to the effect caused when you shine a light on an object in the dark and it produces a shadow? Now, if that object existed in total darkness (at least to our eyes anyway), and there was no light to shine on it, does that mean the object itself doesn't exist?
No, I'm suggesting that just because your world view doesn't support it, does not mean it doesn't exist. In fact, as I have said, the same argument holds true for those who believed in a flat earth.So now your argument "God exists because there is no evidence that he doesn't"?
If you are uncertain whether or not something can come from nothing, might I suggest you go ask Merc?
Which is to say, you're speaking in terms of determinism then, correct?
So now you are saying that Physicists for the last 70 years have been wrong?
No, I'm suggesting that just because your world view doesn't support it, does not mean it doesn't exist. In fact, as I have said, the same argument holds true for those who believed in a flat earth.
Well, obviously, Iacchus. Nothing can be proven wrong. What's your point?
If you are uncertain whether or not something can come from nothing, might I suggest you go ask Merc?
First, why do you keep asking us to "ask Merc"? Try explaining it yourself. Go on, you'll fell better!
Second, that was not what I said. Yet again, you've ignored my point, and constructed a nice Strawman. I said "We. Can't. Know.". This does not, in the slightest, mean that something came from nothing. Only that we can't know what the 'somthing' before the Big Bang was. It's impossible.
Thirdly, please explain why something cannot come from nothing.
No. I said "If you think Evolution happens at random, they you obviously do not understand Evolution at all". That has nothing to do with determinism.
Which is to say, that nothing existed before the advent of time? Or, that you are unwilling -- heh hem, willfully ignorant?
-- to advance the argument beyond this?And you sir, are just as willfully ignorant as you claim me to be.
Which is to say, that nothing existed before the advent of time? Or, that you are unwilling -- heh hem, willfully ignorant?
And you sir, are just as willfully ignorant as you claim me to be.
There is no "willful ignorance" at all, Iacchus. It is impossible to know anything before the Big Bang. By definition.
Are you saying then, that the fact that evolution does not occur at random, has nothing to do with determinism at all?
Then I agree, at least one of us "willfully ignorant" on the matter.
Indeed, how long did people believe the earth was flat, before they understood otherwise?
Oh, and what exactly are you referring to as wrong here? The notion that existence (albeit not in a physical sense) preceded the beginning of time?
Indeed, look at "the moment," which is not contingent upon the past nor the future ... and yet, simply "is." Neither would the past, nor the future, exist without it.
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Evolution is not random. This has nothing to do with determinism. Evolution happens by random mutation and selection. This is what I was talking about. See? You don't understand evolution.
You suggested that time is more like an effect. Modern phsyics says this is wrong. Time and space cannot be seperated, Iacchus. You cannot have one and not the other.
Robin
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Well since I didn't say any such thing then no, I am not saying that. Why would you think I am saying that if I didn't say it? Are you a somewhat inaccurate mind-reader?
To avoid circularity please refer to the previous posts where I dealt with this (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1234615#post1234615).
Now to my questions that you still haven't answered - how could something that 'always existed' be 'pre-planned'?
If irreducible complexity implies the existence of a designer and the designer is irreducibly complex, doesn't that imply the designer was designed?
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I agree, that would be like trying to separate thunder from a lightning flash. However, you seem to be associating time with existence itself, as opposed to the existence of matter. Are you suggesting the two are one and the same? If so, then you will have to find a way to explain how something can come from nothing. If you are unsure, then perhaps you should go ask Merc?
At least he seems to be under the general impression -- albeit I'm not sure he can explain it any better than you can? -- that such a thing is not possible.
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