• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Intelligent Design support letter to the editor

So all the suffering, sinning and death was a result of God's poor planning?

According the the Christian viewpoint it was a consequence of man's misuse of free will.

I dunno, God seems like the original badass...

Deuteronomy 20:16 (New International Version) said:
However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

Numbers 31:17-18 (New International Version) said:
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 17 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Amos 3:6 (New International Version) said:
When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the LORD caused it?


Exodus 20:5 (New International Version) said:
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 32:27 (New International Version) said:
Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "
 
Except for following God's word and staying away from the forbidden fruit. Judging from the punishment that was a HUGE sin that they had a tendency towards.

OK That's your view. But from Christianity's view was merely an exercise of free will without and inherent weakness causing it.

You limit trhe issue to a mere eating of a fruit-but there was far more involved in that action than meets the uninformed eye. As I previously explained, inherent in that action is a request-a rejection of guidence and a decision to try things on their own.

As for total freedom, strange that you should take umbrage since total freedom leads to anarchy and I am 100% sure that you would no want your government to allow that kind of freedom to its citizens since you would be victimized. Common sense.

I don't see how that answers my question.

So day is day then?

God can view a day in different durations not just 24 hours. That's why Adam died after living some 900 years.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

bTW

Thousands of years later God is still said to be in his day of rest into which we can enter via casting sin away. So that in itself tells us clearly that the other creative days could not have been 24 hours long.

Hebrews 4:5
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Hebrews 4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Hebrews 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.




Science may have occasional mistakes, but there is a process where these mistakes are found and corrected.

Mankind has been basically stuck for over a millennia because of religious dogma, culminating in the dark ages. Since science has come to the rescue we have been advancing our knowledge and quality of life by a fantastic rate.

That's a strawman since I am not debating against science. Of course science has its benefits. But to say that we know things in realms where science hasn't penetrated is unjustified. For example, we can say that based only on what we see in this part of the VISIBLE or DETECTABLE universe gravity exists and behaves in such and such a way. However, if we presumptuously extrapolate into the whole realm of existence, then we are being unscientific since our science is based on the characteristics of this dimension and this little part of the universe. Actually, even in this dimension the major portion of our universe has receded beyond detectability. So even here we are limited.

As far as science benefiting mankind, that is debatable since we are still slaughtering one another like savages. Proving that the original lie was a lie since we can't do things on our own without making fools of ourselves.[/quote]

So am I. You were saying that God is at least merciful enough that humanity continued and we are here alive. And I'm saying there are numbers of people totaling many times the current population of Earth whose ancestors were killed in the flood that are not so lucky. They have no opportunity to live. They would not consider God so merciful.

The reason we are granted life is so we can make a choice as Adam and Eve had an opportunity to choose and not have to permanently suffer the consequence of their decision.

About those who died in the past-that's why God provided the resurrection.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.



BTW
Not all those who died in the flood were humans. Genetic contamination had taken place. So when I say ressurection, it applies only to those humans who might have perished.
 
Last edited:
The abused will often defend their abusers actions saying they deserved it.

You have a right to your opinion as I have a right to mine. You requested info-I provided it. but I will not engage in fruitless debates.
 
Last edited:
Is that snide remark really necessary?

It is a well documented phenomenon-- can you support your opinion:

I have found that people who are very critical of God are usually very lenient toward their own behavior and the behavior of mankind in general.
What have you found about people who believe that god is a human invention... are the the bane of all existence? And where did you get that info.-- from your trusted clergy man?

They also demand respect of their views but are unwilling to give it to others.
Interesting... because that is exactly what I have said about woos that preach at this forum... have you been cutting and pasting? Where is this fabulous respect that you imagine yourself giving and where is this uncalled for rudeness that you imagine yourself receiving in return. Cut and paste, would you. Because from where I sit... you do what every woo does. You insult skeptics and scientists in general... you proffer opinion as fact and imply unsavory things about those who don't believe as you do... you ask insincere leading questions you don't want the answer too... and you preach your woo slyly... pretending to be all sciency and skeptical and honest (ha) and humble and full of decorum and respect (ha, ha). You are like every woo.... why do you think you should get more respect than fredcarr the Scientologist who posts here or maatorc the new age woo or Rconk, the Mormon. What makes your woo that you carefully avoid mentioning more likely to be true. Humans have been making up creation stories for eons. Tell us yours and what the evidence is to support it. What language did the first people speak? What did they look like? How did they beget so many different looking people. Did god poof people into existance as adults and implant memories... what kind of adult could you be with virtually no brain programming during a protracted childhood-- a necessity of our species, in case you hadn't noticed. What language did these people speak and did god just whip up their DNA from the mud... how did he decide the code and why did he make it so similar to apes-- including the exact same non-working vitamin C gene that works in all the other mammals??? Why did he do the chromosome 2 fusion thing, eh? Why didn't he mention DNA.... or at least germ thoery... or maybe that the father determines the sex of the offspring-- it would have saved some women from being put to death for not bearing sons.

And why is this story more likely to be true that the Muslim creation story or the Buddhist one or the Moonie one? Why are you more credible than Tom Cruise in your "faith".

Additionally, they also demand strict adherance to logic while refusing to apply the same logic when it comes to ID or anything religious for that matter.
That's why I avoid debates.
Wrong. You avoid debates because you have NO evidence for your alternative "hypothesis" and you are not educated nor interested in understand the facts that science is accumulating which shows your inane story to be a silly farce. You don't debate because your creation story is built on nothing at all and that doesn't fair well next to ever amassing evidence in favor of evolution. Evidence that your brain won't let you compute because you think the invisible guy in the sky wants you to really truly believe a certain version of the story so you can live happily ever after.

BTW
As I said previously, if asked a question I am more than willing to invest time and effort iun providing a response. However, if I am disrespectfully subjected to any kind of personal attack I will use the ignore option. So please try to refrain from doing so.
This thread isn't about questions... it was about a letter to the editor... you enter these threads on this forum to attack evolution whenever you can... but you have nothing. You don't understand the simplest fact about evolution... you are not curious as to what we know and you are certain you have the "higher truth" which explains nothing at all and certainly no better than all the other magic stories humans have been passing on for eons. For the first time, we have actually figured out and proven why we are here... But your faith won't let you understand.

And I'm sure you have me on ignore. Don't bite from that tree of knowledge... it could be Satan tempting you to do that horrible horrible thing calling "thinking" and "reasoning" and being "honest" and truly "humble" instead of some version of whatever you imagine humility is. It sure isn't pretending to know divine secrets while knocking down eons of accumulated hard won scientific facts that would blow your socks off if you weren't so brain damaged from your faith. You call it apologetics and imagine it as something "good"-- I call it "lying for Jesus" and am glad I was able to see my way out of the miasma.
 
Last edited:
All translations contain the same info in Genesis.

I'm quite sure this isn't true, but I don't have the cites right now to back myself up.


Science is full of horrendous bloopers.

The difference being, science doesn't claim to be infallible.




Of course science has its benefits. .....


As far as science benefiting mankind, that is debatable since we are still slaughtering one another like savages.

Make up your mind! Of course science has benefited mankind. Polio vaccines, expanded communication, transportation, etc. The case of benefit/evil is not black and white. Just because some scientific principles are used for evil does not mean science is not beneficial, and vice versa.
 
Christians do not believe nor teach that the original conditions were as they are now and that these present conditions are attributable to the original design. Hope that clears it up.

Are you saying that evolution never happened? Are you a young or old earth creationist by any chance? On what date did the original conditions change?
 
Science has a built in error correcting mechanism. Faith never does. You just have to "believe" and/or chalk it up to mystery.

Radrook, I just watched Tom Cruise's video...he seems very confident that he understands some higher truth... why should we expect that you have access to the real divine truth rather than him and all the people equally convinced of some equally nebulous divine something or other? Because I truly cannot tell why we should take you more seriously than other woo... Why do you take your "truth" more seriously than theirs?
 
Thousands of years later God is still said to be in his day of rest into which we can enter via casting sin away. So that in itself tells us clearly that the other creative days could not have been 24 hours long.

Hebrews 4:5
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Hebrews 4:10
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Hebrews 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Really so on God's day of rest he:

Flooded the earth killing all creatures except those on the Ark,
Punished the inhabitants of Babel for wanting to be closer to him thus sowing the seeds for millennia of poor communication and discord.
Destroyed the towns of Soddom and Gomorrah turning Lot's wife into a Pillar of salt as he did so.
Caused the hundred year old Abraham to bear a son Issac.
Appeared to Moses as a burning bush
Changed Aarons Rod into a Serpant
Inflicted the plagues of Egypt
Divided the Red Sea, sending it crashing back to drown Pharroh's army.
Cared for the wanderers in the desrt for 40 years by sending them manna, sending water to them where Moses struck a rock with his staff (twice) and sweetening the water at Marah.
Issued the ten commandments... twice. The second one apparently with copy errors.
Consumed Nadab and Abihu with fire not to mention the people at Tabirah and Korah and Kadesh.
Made Arron's Rod bud.
Animated the brazen serpent
Caused Balaam Ass to speak
Divided the river Jordan
Toppled the walls of Jerico
Stayed the sun and the moon for Joshua and sent him a hailstorm
Immolated various folk for looking at ot touching the arc of the covenant.
Blinded and cured the Syrians
Raised the dead a couple of times.
Persecuted Jonah - on a bet.

It certainly doesn't sound restfull to me.

I could go on with more Old testament Death and destruction but lets skip forward to impregnating a virgin without prior consent cos I just love that one.

Anyway here's a big old list - http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/miracle.html

If he did all this on his one day of rest then tell me why didn't he send manna on the sabbath?
 
Very interestingly ironic way of saying things. Of course his assumptions are all skewed since they are describing post-Adamic fall conditions which are not atrributable to God.
Because, of course, Adam designed and built ebola, plague, and cockroaches in the tedious unending spare time he enjoyed after maliciously consuming a fruit.
 
It's not just my personal belief that I am putting forth, it's the generally agreed upon Christian point of view regardless of denominational differences. There are slight differences, but the main thrust is that God's original plan was not a world full of suffering sinning and death.
I guess we all encounter things from time to time that we didn't plan on. That's just part of being human, lacking complete information, failing to exercise control when implementing the plan, etc.

The Christian belief is that God did not create cancer cells.
Did they create themselves?

Such cells are the consequence of physical malfunction after mankind rejected God's guidance, protection and blessing and chose to go it on their own. Mankind's mismanagement of the earth since then has caused many formerly neutral animals to become pestiferous.
So, man's "mismanagement" of the benevolent ebola is what caused it to go bad. Would more spanking have been effective? Fewer coffee breaks? Scheduling software? Hot lunches?

The issue of responsibility needs a rather detailed and an understanding of the issues that arose in Eden. First, God was accused of being a liar. His prohibitions were described as selfishly motivated.
Let me just stop you right there. What function did the Tree of Knowledge serve in Eden, outside of being a deadly temptation? Did God lack the knowledge required to child-proof that sucker? Even the most negligent parents will not put poison in a saucer in the crib and then admonish the newborn not to drink it. If that fruit had grown on a high shelf -- say, cloud level -- men wouldn't have been capable of corrupting themselves until the late 1700s when balloons were invented, by which time we might have acquired sufficient experience to know better.

Mankind was described as being better off if they refused his guidance and did as they pleased. Our first parents willingly chose to go in that direction. God permitted their continued existence in order to grant them the opportunity to prove their point. Could they indeed govern themselves better without his guidance and blessing?
You know what this experiment needs? A control group.

All heaven was watching. Destroying the rebels would not have answered that question but would simply raise suspicions that perhaps the rebels were right. So the issue had to be resolved by giving mankind and their angelic rebel friends the time sufficient to prove their point if they could.
Adam and Eve didn't walk on the moon, raise enough food to feed billions, cure polio, or write "Huckleberry Finn." Their biggest accomplishment seems to have been providing long-forgotten names for a bunch of animals that were destined for extinction. In the absence of a credible control group, I'd say Mr. Poor Planning has had his butt handed to him on this one.
 
God created everything. Even evil. It says so in the bible.

  • I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
  • Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
  • Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)
I don't know why the apple eaters (and their descendants) have to get the blame for something that their creator created.
 
Their disobedience requested it. They knew full-well what the consequeces would be, God's disapproval, but chose that path anyway.
Eve's cat Fluffy didn't eat any fruit, so why should he be punished? You didn't eat any fruit, so why should you?

Doesn't any reasonable standard of justice avoid punishing the innocent?
 
God does certainly hate certain things and certain types of people.
"Hate ... for lack of a better word ... is Godly. Hate is good."

I did not say he added cockroaches. I said that some animals became pestiferous after mankind decided to go about on its own. Man's destruction of natural habitats to be replaced by cities.
It never snows in Eden
It never rains, and the wind don't blow
And it's never cold in Eden
For the bible tells me so

Don't need a house in Eden
Just the sky above, and the earth below
Roaches brush your teeth in Eden
For the bible tells me so

His conglomerating in huge numbers under unsanitary conditions.
Don't need bidets in Eden
Any place you stand is the place you go
And your poop don't stink in Eden
For the bible tells me so

Over-hunting, overfishing, destruction of natural predators, introduction of species to control other species, etcetera.
Don't kill to eat in Eden
Ask the lord for steak and a steak will grow
There's some meaty trees in Eden
For the bible tells me so
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom