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Insurer revoked HIV patients' coverage

There's an old urban legend about a con-man who raffled a $1000 gold watch at $1 a ticket, and sold about 5,000 tickets. The eventual winner came back to him and complained that the watch was actually a cheap fake in gold-plated brass, and didn't even work, so the con man refunded the winner his $1. Why would the 4,999 losers have any grounds for complaint?

The difference here, it seems, is that the insurance companies aren't even refunding the original stake.

That's an even better analogy.

And yes, they do pay back the last premium paid in some of these cases. It depends on what they're reasoning is for refusing to pay the benefit. If they can find the big expense or diagnosis is somehow related to a pre-existing condition, they can keep the policy but just refuse that claim alone. But in many of these cases, they're finding a flimsy excuse to do what your con man does in this analogy: pretend the policy was never in effect.

(See the big PDF I linked to earlier--the "supplemental memo" that describes the results of the House Energy Committee's investigation into rescission and post-claim underwriting.)
 
I literally have no clue why you guys have put up with this for so long, never mind why some people are still arguing in favour of the status quo.

The people who are arguing in favor of the status quo are now disguising their argument as specifically being against whatever is wrong with the version of the bill most likely to pass, or--more and more lately--as an argument against the legislative procedures being used to pass it.

They even started saying we should scrap everything that's been done over the past year and start all over from scratch--as if they don't know with near certainty that this would mean maintaining the status quo.

Still, few people will actually claim to be in favor of the status quo. Though some of the Republican proposals for "reform" would only make the problem worse by reducing costs by further limiting access to healthcare to fewer people.
 
Actually Rolfe I think what they did was legal; what got them in this instance is that they had made a factual mistake and based their decision on that mistake. The judges may have thought that their actions were reprehensible and so on but that doesn't mean they were actually illegal.

Sadly I can't see anything in this case and decision that would make the insurance companies stop this practice.

And this does not seem to be a practice limited to the USA, UK health insurers have also come under a lot of criticism for having similar policies. Which is hardly surprising since such insurance companies legal obligation is to maximise profit and value for their shareholders, not to provide funds for health care
I was going to say the same thing; turns out someone has already.

Insurance companies will fraudulently deny cover as long as it returns more than it costs adjusted for the risks, rather like any profit-seeking activity. The costs are things like:

(i) the probability of getting successfully sued * the expected payout when that happens

(ii) the damage to their competitive standing from publicity of those events.

If the system remains loaded towards incentivising that particular corporate behaviour, then it isn't likely to stop, ever.

Fixing (i) via greater access to the courts and higher damages is probably very inefficient. It's a bit like abolishing locks and then providing twenty times more police detectives and prosecutors and defence lawyers and prisons. Not likely to be resourced, and much better to just have locks on doors.

(ii) is an area where I suspect things are rather favourably arranged for the outrage factor to be fairly low, if recission consists of relatively few "big wins" affecting a very small fraction of policy holders, and if they get away with most of these without publicity. If that is the case, then the gains to any company from adopting an ethical line ("We never rescind") would be rather small, especially since their premiums would be significantly higher.

Given the tried and tested success of universal systems, which simply strike down the ability to play the recission game, it's baffling that the US has not fixed it for themselves.
 
Baffling it is.

But then these are the people who still refuse to use SI units for their lab analyses either, which is also baffling. (What's your cholesterol count? Mine's 5.2, thanks for asking. And my cousin who's diabetic says she's keeping her blood glucose down below 7, so that's good too.)

These companies are obviously underwriting their policies and calculating the premiums based on the intention to deny coverage to a significant proportion of customers with big-ticket clams. Great! They're keeping premiums low for their customers! What the customers aren't realising until it's too late is that the price of this is that they themselves are liable to find themselves without cover when they most need it. I wonder how many people would be happy with the statistics if they knew them in advance?

"We only rescind the coverage of 20% of our top 2-percentile claimaints" doesn't necessarily sound that great as an advertising slogan.

Rolfe.
 
These companies are obviously underwriting their policies and calculating the premiums based on the intention to deny coverage to a significant proportion of customers with big-ticket clams.

And this is not conjecture by any means.

From the same House Energy Committe memo I cited earlier (the last two bullet points I quoted earlier):

  • Insurance companies automatically investigate medical histories for all policyholders with certain conditions. WellPoint and Assurant informed the Committee that they automatically investigate the medical records of every policyholder with certain conditions, including leukemia, ovarian cancer, brain cancer, and even becoming pregnant with twins. UnitedHealth was unable to explain specifically how its investigations are triggered, claiming that it utilized a computer program so complex that no single individual in the company could explain it.

  • Insurance companies have evaluated employee performance based on the amount of money their employees saved the company through rescissions. The Committee obtained an annual performance evaluation of the Director of Group Underwriting at WellPoint. Under "results achieved" for meeting financial "targets" and improving financial "stability," the review stated that this official obtained "Retro savings of $9,835,564" through rescissions. The official was awarded a perfect "5" for "exceptional performance."

Earlier ThePrestige suggested that these things were the result of some sort of random audits or something not by explicit design or intention. In fact, this is clearly the design and intention.

ETA: To clean up the casino analogy, this would be like there being a gambling rule that said anyone with an unpaid parking ticket is not eligible to gamble. Most of the time, the casinos don't care a bit whether their patrons have unpaid parking tickets. They're happy to take their money. However, in this hypothetical, the casinos ALWAYS check for unpaid parking tickets when someone hits an extreme longshot win. If they find an unpaid parking ticket, they'll pretend the bet was never placed (refund the wager, but refuse to pay off the big win). And the casinos reward their employees for finding cases of unpaid parking tickets that save them from paying out big wins. Again, this is hypothetical--in the real world casinos would never get away with such rules.
 
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You're not quite getting it. The set of people who will probably face the issue is the set of people who get expensive illnesses. Exactly the set of people who need the cover.

It's like someone else said about the casino. They happily take your money so long as you're losing, or only winning small amounts. Then you win the jackpot, so they demand to see your ID, and tell you that you were never eligible to play for some reason, sorry, bye-bye.

You can't be OK with a casino that's doing that, even though 99.5% of the punters never have their IDs checked. (I know you want the system reformed, I'm just trying to point out that it's not quite the small problem it seems from your figures.)

I get all this. You asked a question: why are more Americans not worried about this. I gave you the answer: because very very few will have to deal with it. Yes, obviously if you have individual or small group insurance and you get very sick, your chances go up drastically. But most Americans are not in one of those categories. It is a tiny percentage of the population. When you include people on Medicare, and the uninsured (who don't have a policy to be rescinded in the first place), the number of people to worry about the practice of rescision is even tinier. SO it isn't something most people worry about. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it. We should. It's wrong if it happens to even one person. But people, right or wrong, tend not to concern themselves with things that don't and likely won't affect them.
 
OK, I see what you mean. I'd have thought investigative journalists would have had people up in arms about it, I'd expect that here. But it's odd that most people seem unaware of it.

Rolfe.
 
I get all this. You asked a question: why are more Americans not worried about this. I gave you the answer: because very very few will have to deal with it.

I think you're right as far as that goes. But murder also only directly affects relatively few people in the population, but we're all outraged when it happens. Why haven't these stories been in the news, and why don't we think of the greedy bastards who make these policies as we do violent offenders?

When I watched Michael Moore's Sicko, I got an inkling of how much I personally had bought into the U.S. model of healthcare and thought of it as a free market commodity rather than something we really should provide to everyone universally. The specific point that opened my eyes was the bit where the ex-pat American moving to France lied on his health history questionnaire (about having diabetes, IIRC). His pre-existing condition came up during an interview with a nurse or some such. To the French nurse, it made no sense to conceal a pre-existing condition on a health history. Health care providers need to know about it to give appropriate treatment. But to many of us in the U.S. it makes perfect sense to lie about a pre-existing condition so that you can hope to have it covered. That's just the way we've been conditioned (by the system as it is) into thinking.

Look at theprestige
The Painter's initial response to the story told in the OP. It's all OK because 7 years later the patient won back the money in a lawsuit.

Speaking of Sicko, when I first saw it, I was inclined to be skeptical of the stories about rescission and post claim underwriting. I thought that since Moore was making a persuasive documentary, that he was simply cherry picking a few extremely exceptional stories that weren't at all typical of the industry. (And I frankly didn't believe that there were actually people hired to do this post-claim underwriting when people got a serious diagnosis that would require very expensive treatment.)
 
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health insurance is a business. they made a business decision. why should they be forced to pay to cover a very expensive disease.

what are ya...a Communist?


Big health insurance profits in a trickle-down economy mean I just got me a free Zyprexa 16 oz coffee cup :clap:
 
The employees who flag up the alleged discrepancies are rewarded with bonus payments for denying lifesaving treatment for as many people as possible.

<snip>

Then when you get cancer, someone on a performance-related bonus will fine-tooth comb your file and find the bit where your doctor noted a suspicion he didn't tell you about, which maybe was a false alarm anyway, and deny you coverage based on an undeclared pre-existing condition. Or something like that. And you won't be able to find alternative coverage, because you aren't a risk any more, you're a certainty.

How do these employees sleep at night? What do they tell their family during dinner? "I had a productive day. I ended insurance for 2 HIV patients and 5 cancer patients, all in a single day. They'll be begging in the streets by the end of the week, but my bonus will pay for the second garage."

Sick.

And per your post from the House Committee:
The Committee obtained an annual performance evaluation of the Director of Group Underwriting at WellPoint prepared on February 26, 2004. One objective this official was evaluated for was her ability to meet financial "targets" and improve financial "stability." Under "results achieved," the review stated that this official obtained "Retro savings of $9,835,564," indicating that she helped save the company nearly $10 million through rescissions. For this objective, the official was awarded a perfect "5" for "exceptional performance".
Newspeak anyone?
 
Actually Rolfe I think what they did was legal; what got them in this instance is that they had made a factual mistake and based their decision on that mistake. The judges may have thought that their actions were reprehensible and so on but that doesn't mean they were actually illegal.

I don't think anyone proposed any criminal charges against Fortis/Assurant, but the guy did eventually win a civil case against them.

But you're right, in many of these cases, the rescission is legal.
 
When I watched Michael Moore's Sicko, I got an inkling of how much I personally had bought into the U.S. model of healthcare and thought of it as a free market commodity rather than something we really should provide to everyone universally. The specific point that opened my eyes was the bit where the ex-pat American moving to France lied on his health history questionnaire (about having diabetes, IIRC). His pre-existing condition came up during an interview with a nurse or some such. To the French nurse, it made no sense to conceal a pre-existing condition on a health history. Health care providers need to know about it to give appropriate treatment. But to many of us in the U.S. it makes perfect sense to lie about a pre-existing condition so that you can hope to have it covered. That's just the way we've been conditioned (by the system as it is) into thinking.

Speaking of Sicko, when I first saw it, I was inclined to be skeptical of the stories about rescission and post claim underwriting. I thought that since Moore was making a persuasive documentary, that he was simply cherry picking a few extremely exceptional stories that weren't at all typical of the industry. (And I frankly didn't believe that there were actually people hired to do this post-claim underwriting when people got a serious diagnosis that would require very expensive treatment.)


I've tried to discuss Sicko more than once. It's impossible, because the threads just get spammed by people insulting Moore and bleating about his documentary technique. I even started a thread specifically to discuss the content of the film without referring to Moore, but it was no good and the mods told me that I couldn't report posts slagging off Moore as off-topic or have them removed.

It's quite extraordinary the sheer hate the man evokes. I wouldn't say he's 100% correct in his take on all the cases he cites, but you can only figure this out by examining the actual cases. One major gripe was his use of "emotional" music - why wasn't he more matter-of-fact? However, the anti-universal-healthcare propaganda I've seen has used exactly the same trick to gain the viewer's sympathy.

The trip to Cuba was vilified in the most extraordinary terms, even though it seemed to be about as legit as you'd expect given that it must have been set up in advance. The unbiassed reports of healthcare in Cuba suggest the segment wasn't far off-beam.

I and others have gone through a number of anti-universal-healthcare films practically frame by frame, analysing the examples and the arguments, to see how valid they were. The most notable one was the John Stossel film posted by Dan Stanley. The intellectual dishonesty in that film was staggering. But it could be exposed for itself, without vilifying Stossel. How "well at least he's not a fat slob" becomes support for his position against Moore's, I simply cannot imagine.

I don't know how the USA is going to get over this hurdle until "people" stop seeing healthcare as a consumer commodity which every consumer should pay for individually, or go without. I recall several posters wading into threads like this in the past insisting that the only people who favour universal healthcare are those who have expensive healthcare needs and want them met "for the price of free".

I'm tired of listening to people insisting that proponents want to steal "the fruits of my labours" "at the point of a gun" to pay for someone else's child's medical care, when I need that money to pay for my own child's medical care! People who say, what right do you have to insist that I pay for your healthcare?

The cultural chasm is just unbelievable. The sheer hatred for any form of "compulsory sharing", even when the benefits to all are quite unarguable, is extraordinary. The idea that I might be offering to pay for your healthcare doesn't seem to have dawned on any of them. The idea that the community might be offering to take responsibility for your child's healthcare, and the other guy's child's as well to make sure all children are treated and nobody has to starve or go bankrupt doesn't seem to penetrate. Or if it does, it's teh evil communism.

I hear similar sorts of rhetoric in Britain, but it's all directed against welfare scroungers. That attitude doesn't vary between the countries. The difference seems to be that while in Britain the disapproval of the welfare scrounger is confined to the social security system, and you'll never hear anyone grudging someone who is sick the medical care they need, no matter how feckless, in the USA the attitude extends to medical coverage.

I was also shocked, in Sicko, by the attitude of the man who went to France. I thought he knew why he was going, and understood what "universal healthcare" meant. That he would get what he needed, as of right. But he didn't seem to get it. Even there, he assumed he had to hide the fact that he was entering the country with diabetes, for fear someone would say diabetes treatment wasn't "covered" for him.

This mindset seems like a terrible handicap to me. It fosters hatred of the less fortunate fellow-citizens, and a judgmental attitude that if anyone does get free care they should be "deserving". I don't know what it takes to change that mindset to one where it's agreed that in a civilised society nobody should be without affordable medical treatment.

I'm just glad I'm in the spectators' gallery.

Rolfe.
 
I think you're right as far as that goes. But murder also only directly affects relatively few people in the population, but we're all outraged when it happens. Why haven't these stories been in the news, and why don't we think of the greedy bastards who make these policies as we do violent offenders?

Are we really outraged when murder happens? I mean, if it happened to someone I love I would be. And when it happens to pretty young girls people act outraged. But by and large, people hear about murders all the time, and probably don't think much about them other than passing interest.

I'm sure it's not on the news much because it wouldn't be a particularly interesting story, but also because it is legal, and mostly a civil matter. It is occasionally discussed, but yeah not much.

When I watched Michael Moore's Sicko, I got an inkling of how much I personally had bought into the U.S. model of healthcare and thought of it as a free market commodity rather than something we really should provide to everyone universally. The specific point that opened my eyes was the bit where the ex-pat American moving to France lied on his health history questionnaire (about having diabetes, IIRC). His pre-existing condition came up during an interview with a nurse or some such. To the French nurse, it made no sense to conceal a pre-existing condition on a health history. Health care providers need to know about it to give appropriate treatment. But to many of us in the U.S. it makes perfect sense to lie about a pre-existing condition so that you can hope to have it covered. That's just the way we've been conditioned (by the system as it is) into thinking.

Pre-existing conditions is a key problem in our system. It's also one that I can't actually blame health insurers for, but do blame the "system"as a whole. Either we mandate insurance for everyone, or we accept that insurers are going to exclude you for pre-existing conditions (and really, rescissions are a result of that, though we could do away with them without mandating insurance for all). It's just odd that people don't seem to grasp that concept. I've heard people say "we should force insurers to accept pre-existing conditions," but if you point out that to do that we'd really need to get everyone into the system, you get, "I don't want the government telling me that I have to buy insurance!" It's perplexing.

Speaking of Sicko, when I first saw it, I was inclined to be skeptical of the stories about rescission and post claim underwriting. I thought that since Moore was making a persuasive documentary, that he was simply cherry picking a few extremely exceptional stories that weren't at all typical of the industry. (And I frankly didn't believe that there were actually people hired to do this post-claim underwriting when people got a serious diagnosis that would require very expensive treatment.)

Definitely not extremely exceptional cases... but it is worth pointing out that there are insurance companies out there who don't do it. Aetna, for example, at least claims that it has only rescinded around 160 of 500,000+ policies, and that they were all for outright fraud. Kaiser Permanente, a non-profit, did it for two years (and ended up getting sued), and says it doesn't do it any longer. I'm sure there are many other companies that don't. I'd be interested in seeing if there is a big difference between for-profit and non-profit carriers (non-profits, incidentally, have about half of the insured population. Typically, they don't operate wholly different than for-profit carriers, but maybe they do in this case).
 
You forgot to mention this;
Poor bastard only got 10 million. I guess he can pay for his own health care now. He also got heath care at a clinic without the insurance. So he didn't die within a year or two.


YUP, cause this ONE guy after YEARS of battling received what he PAID for and what the Corp promised to provide as a service to him for his money makes it ALL GOOD. and hey - others stepped up and acted human to take care of the guy after the corp screwed him over just simply nullifies the behavior of the scum bag corporation.

That a corporation commits systematic fraud and actively engages in dishonest and immoral behavior and has a COMPLETE disregard for human life is all just "NOTHING TO SEE HERE, Move along" Yet another perfect example of the party of Family Values and Personal responsibility.
 
How do these employees sleep at night? What do they tell their family during dinner? "I had a productive day. I ended insurance for 2 HIV patients and 5 cancer patients, all in a single day. They'll be begging in the streets by the end of the week, but my bonus will pay for the second garage."


What he said.

We did have a poster here a while ago, Suezoled, who worked in a call centre for a health insurance company, but her hilarious stories were all about the crazy claimants, and sorting out the delivery of their healthcare. I don't rememebr anything about denying anyone anything they really needed.

Must have been a different department.

Rolfe.
 
People lose their jobs. There's a recession. It's not always easy to find another one. What are you going to do in the mean time?


Mmm, yes. There was an item on the BBC news this evening about the US healthcare debate. One little snippet was filmed inside a pharmacist's office. There was a caller on the phone asking about the medication he needed. The pharmacist checked on the computer and told him that unfortunately he wasn't covered. "And I'm afraid it's quite expensive - over $400."

It was then explained to the BBC interviewer that the caller had lost his job, so was no longer covered by healthcare insurance, so just as he'd lost his income, he was going to have to find a lot of money to pay for the medication he was on.

It's not just rescission that can screw people.

Rolfe.
 
How do these employees sleep at night? What do they tell their family during dinner? "I had a productive day. I ended insurance for 2 HIV patients and 5 cancer patients, all in a single day. They'll be begging in the streets by the end of the week, but my bonus will pay for the second garage."

Sick.

Maybe they don't talk about it?

Newspeak anyone?

[nitpick] Technically no. [/nitpick]
 

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