Indyref 2: This time it's personal.

[catsmate]

Where? In the north, the south, or over the whole island?

South.
Though the Assembly results suggests it's heading that way in Norn Iron also.

 

[abaddon]

Well support for unification is running about 50/50.

In the abstract. The results change when economics are taken into account.

 

[Strawberry]

In the abstract. The results change when economics are taken into account.

Tell us all about your knowledge of the economics of a united Ireland then, abaddon. You can start by telling us what NI's annual tax intake is, and what its tax expenditure needs would be in a united Ireland context.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

......exists only to provide a pretext for calling another referendum. It's nothing more than the most obvious ransom note in recent political history, deliberately claiming that the impossible is possible, so that when the British government points out that it is actually impossible the SNP can stomp off in a self-righteous huff and try to whip the populace into voting to leave the nasty UK behind.

Odd that they'd want to leave a union with their biggest trading partner to join one with their second biggest (at a quarter the size), but then, Scots nats are a perverse bunch.

More guff from a rabid anti Scotland poster.

 

[Planigale]

Staying in the EU was not a party political issue in Scotland, every party including the Tory leader in Scotland Ruth Davidson argued to remain and 68% of the electorate agreed with them and still do. Many people in Scotland are worried about Independence but that does not mean they want Brexit. Scotland demographically needs immigration, it has long established roots with Europe and shares many cultural and historic ties with Ireland. Unfortunately, its ties with England were very badly damaged under Thatcher and if I was a Scottish Tory, I might be very worried about a U.K. Prime Minister reducing the party to having few representatives again.

The Tory leader of the UK government then and now supported remain (which was the Tory government view). The flakiest party was labour. I do not think that one can say that one can say that remain vs leave was a party political issue for the UK as a whole versus Scotland. In both Scotland and the UK as a whole UKIP supported exit so one cannot claim there was no party in Scotland supporting exit. (As did Tommy Sheridan) Remember over a third of Scots voted to leave the EU, a minority but a substantial minority and one whose views need to be recognised.

The talk about Scotland's ties with Europe are fatuous. Does this imply that in someway England (a far more diverse country than Scotland) has no ties? I do recognise that the ulster Scots from the plantations has resulted in strong ties between the scots colonists in Ulster and their home country.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The Tory leader of the UK government then and now supported remain (which was the Tory government view). The flakiest party was labour. I do not think that one can say that one can say that remain vs leave was a party political issue for the UK as a whole versus Scotland. In both Scotland and the UK as a whole UKIP supported exit so one cannot claim there was no party in Scotland supporting exit. (As did Tommy Sheridan) Remember over a third of Scots voted to leave the EU, a minority but a substantial minority and one whose views need to be recognised.

The talk about Scotland's ties with Europe are fatuous. Does this imply that in someway England (a far more diverse country than Scotland) has no ties? I do recognise that the ulster Scots from the plantations has resulted in strong ties between the scots colonists in Ulster and their home country.

None of which supports your frankly ridiculous contention that the Scottish government doing its job is propaganda.

 

[Craig B]

The Tory leader of the UK government then and now supported remain (which was the Tory government view). The flakiest party was labour. I do not think that one can say that one can say that remain vs leave was a party political issue for the UK as a whole versus Scotland. In both Scotland and the UK as a whole UKIP supported exit so one cannot claim there was no party in Scotland supporting exit. (As did Tommy Sheridan) Remember over a third of Scots voted to leave the EU, a minority but a substantial minority and one whose views need to be recognised.

The talk about Scotland's ties with Europe are fatuous. Does this imply that in someway England (a far more diverse country than Scotland) has no ties? I do recognise that the ulster Scots from the plantations has resulted in strong ties between the scots colonists in Ulster and their home country.

UKIP and Tommy Sheridan, eh? These are the Brexit parties in Scotland, are they? Not very impressive, I must say.

You regard the Protestants of Northern Ireland as "Ulster Scots from the plantations", "Scots colonists" whose "home country" is Scotland.

That is an archaic view of matters. I suppose it adds weight to your argument about the number of Scots who support Brexit, as the main support for that opinion in N Ireland came from Unionists. If you call them Scots then behold you can argue that more Scots favoured Brexit. Ingenious.

 

[catsmate]

Tell us all about your knowledge of the economics of a united Ireland then, abaddon. You can start by telling us what NI's annual tax intake is, and what its tax expenditure needs would be in a united Ireland context.

That was my point. After factoring in the costs support for unification runs at barely 50% in Ireland.

 

[Strawberry]

That was my point. After factoring in the costs support for unification runs at barely 50% in Ireland.

Factoring in what though? What, in your estimation, are the costs of a united Ireland?

There was a poll released just two days ago that gave people the unrealistically high figure of £9 billion per annum, and even with that unappetising prospect, support for a united Ireland was still over 50%, albeit only just. That actual economics of a united Ireland would be a lot less unappetising than simply taking the UK's subvention and pasting it on to the Republic's budget, so you could expect the majority in favour in the Republic to be much higher than in that poll. I would predict 60% or above would vote for a united Ireland in the south if they were given a realistic picture of the economics of unity.

 

[Craig B]

That was my point. After factoring in the costs support for unification runs at barely 50% in Ireland.

You mean that you, and the Irish population in general, can answer these questions?!? I wish I could.

what NI's annual tax intake is, and

what its tax expenditure needs would be in a united Ireland context.

 

[McHrozni]

Theresa May scored another low yesterday, it's about Indyref 2 this time:

The prime minister told the Scottish Conservative party she would fight against any further decentralisation of power which meant the UK became “a looser and weaker union”. “We cannot allow our United Kingdom to drift apart,” she said.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-down-independence-vote-challenge-to-sturgeon

After spending 40 years doing that to EU, no less. Brits are weird.

There's more of course:

Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, hinted this week that Downing Street would insist on staging any referendum after the UK formally left the EU in 2019 to ensure the Scottish electorate knew what it was voting for.

How considerate. Maybe they should do the same to the rest of the UK while they're at it, and rerun the Brexit referendum? I mean, if it matters to the Scots to the point Westminster must intervene to ensure they know all relevant details beforehand, it should matter to the rest of UK, no?

McHrozni

 

[Strawberry]

You mean that you, and the Irish population in general, can answer these questions?!? I wish I could.

what NI's annual tax intake is, and

what its tax expenditure needs would be in a united Ireland context.

I've noticed before that those who cast themselves as hard headed realists lecturing the romantic Irish nationalists about the costs of unity always go very quiet when they're asked those questions.

 

[Planigale]

Theresa May scored another low yesterday, it's about Indyref 2 this time:

The prime minister told the Scottish Conservative party she would fight against any further decentralisation of power which meant the UK became “a looser and weaker union”. “We cannot allow our United Kingdom to drift apart,” she said.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-down-independence-vote-challenge-to-sturgeon

After spending 40 years doing that to EU, no less. Brits are weird.

There's more of course:

Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, hinted this week that Downing Street would insist on staging any referendum after the UK formally left the EU in 2019 to ensure the Scottish electorate knew what it was voting for.

How considerate. Maybe they should do the same to the rest of the UK while they're at it, and rerun the Brexit referendum? I mean, if it matters to the Scots to the point Westminster must intervene to ensure they know all relevant details beforehand, it should matter to the rest of UK, no?

McHrozni

In what way is the EU a looser and weaker union than forty years ago? What EU powers have been reallocated to nations or regions in the last forty years?

I am anti-Brexit, but making false analogies does not further your argument.

I would like a re-run referendum on Brexit once the article 50 negotiations are complete before the government agrees to them and we exit the EU.

 

[Planigale]

UKIP and Tommy Sheridan, eh? These are the Brexit parties in Scotland, are they? Not very impressive, I must say.

You regard the Protestants of Northern Ireland as "Ulster Scots from the plantations", "Scots colonists" whose "home country" is Scotland.

That is an archaic view of matters. I suppose it adds weight to your argument about the number of Scots who support Brexit, as the main support for that opinion in N Ireland came from Unionists. If you call them Scots then behold you can argue that more Scots favoured Brexit. Ingenious.

So in what way are the Scots closer to the Irish "share many cultural and historic ties with Ireland" (than the English?) as this was the argument I was responding to?

Scots Ulster is a recognised co-equal language with Irish Gaelic under the Good Friday agreement. A little known fact is the widely used term in Ireland 'a good craic' is an ulster scots term.

 

[Craig B]

So in what way are the Scots closer to the Irish "share many cultural and historic ties with Ireland" (than the English?) as this was the argument I was responding to?

Scots Ulster is a recognised co-equal language with Irish Gaelic under the Good Friday agreement. A little known fact is the widely used term in Ireland 'a good craic' is an ulster scots term.

I paid my first visit to Derry last month, as I have mentioned before in the forum. Public notices in the Guild Hall were trilingual, given in English, Scots and Gaelic. These are the three languages used by indigenous Scots also in Scotland. Is that a cultural tie? Do town halls in England, or anywhere else, have this feature?

 

[Planigale]

I paid my first visit to Derry last month, as I have mentioned before in the forum. Public notices in the Guild Hall were trilingual, given in English, Scots and Gaelic. These are the three languages used by indigenous Scots also in Scotland. Is that a cultural tie? Do town halls in England, or anywhere else, have this feature?

I think you will find that they were in Irish Gaelic and Ulster Scots and English English. Wales is bilingual of course, as is Ireland. I am aware that some documents in Scotland are in Scots Gaelic and English, I am not aware (but stand to be corrected) that Scots (lowland? doric?) is an official language. Sadly the indigenous language of Scotland - Pictish most similar to Welsh of any extant language - was displaced by Irish invaders from the West and Anglo-Saxon invaders from the South and Norse invaders from the coast. The result is there are no speakers of Pictish, the last speakers of Norn died a generation or two ago and the language is no longer spoken in the Northern Isles, leaving English and a residuum of Gaelic.

 

[Craig B]

I think you will find that they were in Irish Gaelic and Ulster Scots and English English. Wales is bilingual of course, as is Ireland. I am aware that some documents in Scotland are in Scots Gaelic and English, I am not aware (but stand to be corrected) that Scots (lowland? doric?) is an official language. Sadly the indigenous language of Scotland - Pictish most similar to Welsh of any extant language - was displaced by Irish invaders from the West and Anglo-Saxon invaders from the South and Norse invaders from the coast. The result is there are no speakers of Pictish, the last speakers of Norn died a generation or two ago and the language is no longer spoken in the Northern Isles, leaving English and a residuum of Gaelic.

That is fascinating, and I disagree with almost all of it; but it's not for this thread. Start one for it and I will happily respond.

 

[dudalb]

Well, I guess that's a discussion for a different thread. It might be good to start one, on the back of this morning's election result. If I continued the discussion it would be off-topic.

I think I'll bow out of this thread now, anyway. Reasoned discussion is one thing, but members coming in simply to post derogatory "FIFY" remarks without any rational argument to back them up simply gets my back up and that's not good.

Y'all carry on.

Well,maybe if you did not show your contempt for the other three members of the UK so much....

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Well,maybe if you did not show your contempt for the other three members of the UK so much....

Can you give examples of what you mean? Otherwise I think this is an unfair remark to someone who explicitly said they have left the thread

 

[McHrozni]

In what way is the EU a looser and weaker union than forty years ago? What EU powers have been reallocated to nations or regions in the last forty years?

I am anti-Brexit, but making false analogies does not further your argument.

UK has been trying it's very best to ensure EU stays as decentralized as possible. Look at it from a bit wider perspective, keeping organization decentralized and decentralizing it aren't fundamentally different actions.

McHrozni