Indyref 2: This time it's personal.

McHrozni said:
UK has been trying it's very best to ensure EU stays as decentralized as possible. Look at it from a bit wider perspective, keeping organization decentralized and decentralizing it aren't fundamentally different actions.

McHrozni
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I would disagree that decentralisation results in a weaker union. (Of course this may be true for the UK in that decentralisation by having devolved parliaments does seem to have resulted in potentially destroying the union.)

The US has a very decentralised federation, e.g. small towns will have their own police. Yet one would not say that the USA was a loose and weak union. Germany has a strong federal system that decentralises power yet it is not a loose and weak union.

Question 1) How has the UK kept the EU decentralised? This would need to be a case where solely the UK was responsible.
Question 2) How does decentralisation weaken a union?

In principle I think that subsidiarity / decentralisation is a good thing. I am for the EU, but not as a unitary nation state where all decisions are made in Strasbourg / Brussels.
 
Planigale said:
I would disagree that decentralisation results in a weaker union. (Of course this may be true for the UK in that decentralisation by having devolved parliaments does seem to have resulted in potentially destroying the union.)

The US has a very decentralised federation, e.g. small towns will have their own police. Yet one would not say that the USA was a loose and weak union. Germany has a strong federal system that decentralises power yet it is not a loose and weak union.

Question 1) How has the UK kept the EU decentralised? This would need to be a case where solely the UK was responsible.
Question 2) How does decentralisation weaken a union?

In principle I think that subsidiarity / decentralisation is a good thing. I am for the EU, but not as a unitary nation state where all decisions are made in Strasbourg / Brussels.
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I think I broadly agree with you here but it does rather attack May's initial statement that devolving powers makes the UK weaker and looser. What she may find is that if Westminster is not willing to give then the Union will break.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I think I broadly agree with you here but it does rather attack May's initial statement that devolving powers makes the UK weaker and looser. What she may find is that if Westminster is not willing to give then the Union will break.
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The UK has never been able to evolve a federal union because of the traditional dominance of the political theories noted here.

A federal system simply can't be fitted into the prevailing constitutional arrangements, although many other polities can do this successfully. So the devolution of powers outside Westminster might well induce the dissolution of the UK, unless profound ideological changes happen very promptly.
 
Craig B said:
The UK has never been able to evolve a federal union because of the traditional dominance of the political theories noted here.

A federal system simply can't be fitted into the prevailing constitutional arrangements, although many other polities can do this successfully. So the devolution of powers outside Westminster might well induce the dissolution of the UK, unless profound ideological changes happen very promptly.
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Yes I think the failure of Tony Blair when he introduced devolution was to follow though the changes in constitutional arrangements he started.
 
Latest Ipsos mori poll shows voting intent at 50/50 in a future indyref. Think these numbers were nearer half that in favour before the first indyref. The direction of travel seems pretty obvious and world and uk events are only strengthening the feeling in favour of a fresh start
 
Wow. Go for it Scotland.

Mind you if anything the "known unknowns" situation is even worse than it was last time. Given the time scale, I think Scotland could find themselves in the worse possible situation, out of the EU and out of the union at the same time. Could the Scottish economy stand such a double whammy?
 
Are the Scots really prepared to jeopardise a guaranteed £350 million per week for the NHS, by voting to leave the U.K. and rejoin the EU?

Only a fool wouldn't trust UKIP and the Conservatives.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255256


Summary


  1. First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announces independence referendum will be between Autumn 2018 and Spring 2019
  2. Ms Sturgeon says she will seek Scottish Parliament approval for a second independence referendum next week
  3. The franchise and question in the second independence referendum is for the Scottish Parliament to decide says the first minister
 
Blue Bubble said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255256


Summary


  1. First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announces independence referendum will be between Autumn 2018 and Spring 2019
  2. Ms Sturgeon says she will seek Scottish Parliament approval for a second independence referendum next week
  3. The franchise and question in the second independence referendum is for the Scottish Parliament to decide says the first minister
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A winter referendum? Doesn't cold/wet suppress voter turnout? With the polls so close, is that likely to give one side or the other an advantage (based on the different demographics)?
 
imodium said:
Are the Scots really prepared to jeopardise a guaranteed £350 million per week for the NHS, by voting to leave the U.K. and rejoin the EU?
Only a fool wouldn't trust UKIP and the Conservatives.
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I don't think that's what the referendum is going to ask, the EU referendum has already happened, this one will just be for whether Scotland becomes a new independent country.

It is hard to see how such independence would happen before the UK (which will still include Scotland at that time) leaves the EU according to article 50.

So nuScotland will still be looking to join the EU as an independent country after Scotland leaves the EU along with Wales etc.
 
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Sturgeon is banking on Westminster saying no to IndyRef-2 prior to Brexit - that will give her the stage to moan about ill-treatment from the English for at least another two years.

May should call her bluff and say, 'Okay - get on with it as soon as you like.'

Scotland will either then vote no again, and we'll all be rid of Sturgeon, or they'll vote yes and at least England will be rid of her.
 
ceptimus said:
Sturgeon is banking on Westminster saying no to IndyRef-2 prior to Brexit - that will give her the stage to moan about ill-treatment from the English for at least another two years.

May should call her bluff and say, 'Okay - get on with it as soon as you like.'

Scotland will either then vote no again, and we'll all be rid of Sturgeon, or they'll vote yes and at least England will be rid of her.
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Hmm - you do know the UK is not England and Scotland?
 
Darat said:
I don't think that's what the referendum is going to ask, the EU referendum has already happened, this one will just be for whether Scotland becomes a new independent country.

It is hard to see how such independence would happen before the UK (which will still include Scotland at that time) leaves the EU according to article 50.

So nuScotland will still be looking to join the EU as an independent country after Scotland leaves the EU along with Wales etc.
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I think you missed the sarcasm in that post....
 
ceptimus said:
Sturgeon is banking on Westminster saying no to IndyRef-2 prior to Brexit - that will give her the stage to moan about ill-treatment from the English for at least another two years.

May should call her bluff and say, 'Okay - get on with it as soon as you like.'

Scotland will either then vote no again, and we'll all be rid of Sturgeon, or they'll vote yes and at least England will be rid of her.
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Theresa May making a principled stand, doubtless right after Donald Trump is invited for a state visit to Mexico...:rolleyes:
 
By the way for anyone who thinks that the Nats are simply anti-English and or driven by hatred I'd love to see their take on the invective that has been pored on the SNP online and on social media today in particular. Nicola Sturgeon is subjected to some very personal and, to my mind, misogynistic abuse from a variety of quarters and a large number of 'commentators' from South of the Border seem to make their case for the Union by wishing nothing but bad on Scotland should they choose the path of independence.

If the argument is that we are better together then they do a hell of a good job of making it look like we aren't.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Those well known promoters of the idea that the UK is only England?
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We seem to be misunderstanding each other - I thought you were commenting on those that repeatedly use "England" to mean the "bits of the UK not including Scotland.". Certainly in many threads here it was the SNP/Independence side people who would keep saying "England" when they should have said "England, Wales, NI and the various other bits and pieces that make up the UK".
 
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