Incredibly huge inconsistency of modern physics

+Perpetual Student Yes, but we're all ignorant. Look at your username :) How am I supposed to know at face value when someone comes to me with a new theory?
Or some new life-changing medicine? If they claim violation of classical thermodynamics, I call BS, as a working assumption.
 
+Perpetual Student Yes, but we're all ignorant. Look at your username :) How am I supposed to know at face value when someone comes to me with a new theory?
Or some new life-changing medicine? If they claim violation of classical thermodynamics, I call BS, as a working assumption.

This thread has become difficult to follow because of the avalanche of comments you post with no quoted text to provide context. To what violation of classical thermodynamics are you referring?
 
By the way, historically, classical thermodynamics was burdened with inconsistencies -- in the low energy range -- that were resolved by quantum thermodynamics.
 
popc1%5B1%5D.gif


This wogoga-less version of the thread is very interesting, in spite of the ADD-like style of one eager intelligent participant.
 
By the way, historically, classical thermodynamics was burdened with inconsistencies -- in the low energy range -- that were resolved by quantum thermodynamics.

Classical thermodynamics became self consistent when the third law of thermodynamics was added. The problem was that classical thermodynamics is not consistent with classical mechanics.

Classical thermodynamics is based on four fundamental laws (0,1,2,3), the third law being the last of the series. Statistical mechanics showed how classical thermodynamics is consistent with classical mechanics for high temperatures. There is no inconsistency with classical physics for an ideal gas. Boltzmann statistics governs the behavior of all materials at high temperatures and low pressures.

The major inconsistencies came about because of three things. First, the third law was inconsistent with classical mechanics. Second, the fact that thermal equilibrium exists is inconsistent with classical mechanics. Third, experimental fact that the black body radiation is finite.

The third law basically says that all systems in equilibrium have the same lowest bound in temperature, which is called absolute zero kelvin. There is no way to get a lower temperature using a finite number of cyclic processes. Scientists tried, and still try, to get lower temperatures than 0 K in equilibrium materials and can't do it.

One can achieve lower 'temperatures' in systems very far from thermal equilibrium. However, these aren't well-defined temperatures because thermodynamic temperature for system infinitesimally close to thermal equilibrium. When you hear about negative temperatures, the system that is being discussed is at best in quasi equilibrium. The excited material used in lasers can have a negative temperature, but this is not violating the third law because the excited material are far from equilibrium. However, why should any system ever approach thermal equilibrium?

This was solved when quantum mechanics showed how bound systems have discrete energy values. There is a ground state which is energetically far from the other states. So you can't lower the temperature so far that the energy of the bound system is below the ground state energy.

If there is no lower bound to temperature, then can always reach a lower temperature by emitting radiation into the vacuum. Furthermore, point particles of opposite charge could always emit radiation by get closer to each other. In classical mechanics, there is no smallest distance between point particles. So why are atoms with point charges ever at equilibrium? Alternatively, why do all particles have a finite size? Atoms shrink for all eternity, giving off electromagnetic waves! They should never settle to a finite size. Obviously, there is no such thing as thermal equilibrium. -Not- :D

Isolated systems have a tendency to asymptotically approach a state of thermal equilibrium. Boltzmann showed using classical mechanics that this state has a characteristic entropy. However, this entropy calculated by classical mechanics had no lower limit. This means that one can always make an isolated system that would absorb heat from other systems.

Again, quantum mechanics showed that given enough time a system that emits photons will reach an equilibrium. One couldn't lower the energy below the ground state energy.

The energy density of a black body can be determined from classical mechanics. The energy density of the black body radiation should be infinite. Further, there should be no upper bound to the frequency of the black body radiation at a certain temperature. This contradicted experimental measurements.

Quantum mechanics solved this by showing how the amplitude of a vibration is limited to discrete values. Energy is basically the square of the amplitude. So there was no way for a quantum mechanics system to have an infinite energy.

Anyway, the above is my interpretation of science history. Classical mechanics shows that there are no states of equilibrium possible. Quantum mechanics was necessary to explain why isolated systems approached equilibrium.


Some people claim to have extracted energy from the zero point radiation. Others here claim that this violates conservation of energy which is the first law of thermodynamics.

I won't make a stand right now on whether any of these innovators are right or not. However, I will correct big mistake that the skeptics are making. The first law of thermodynamics is not being challenge when they make a perpetual motion device.

A device that extracts energy from zero point radiation is not violating conservation of energy. The energy comes from the zero point radiation. Therefore, it is not violating the first law.

A perpetual motion device extracting energy from the zero point energy is violating both the second and the third law of thermodynamics. When the device does work, it decreases the entropy of the universe. Because the device is never close thermal equilibrium, one can always construct negative temperature states.

The inflating universe may be such a perpetual motion device! The universe before the canonical Big Bang extracted zero point energy. So energy was conserved. However, the entropy of the pre-universe decreased. Further, there were no bound states before the Big Bang (?). So there was no discrete energy states, and no ground state. So the temperature could decrease without limit. So the second and third laws were violated in the inflationary time.

So the first law of thermodynamics is fairly safe! The last two laws are on shaky ground <state>, maybe! :D
 
Last edited:
One can achieve lower 'temperatures' in systems very far from thermal equilibrium. However, these aren't well-defined temperatures because thermodynamic temperature for system infinitesimally close to thermal equilibrium. When you hear about negative temperatures, the system that is being discussed is at best in quasi equilibrium. The excited material used in lasers can have a negative temperature, but this is not violating the third law because the excited material are far from equilibrium. However, why should any system ever approach thermal equilibrium?

I think you may misunderstand something rather fundamental about temperature. Negative temperatures are not super-cold, they are super-hot. Yes, this is not intuitive, but then, the actual definition of temperature isn't intuitive either. Temperature is actually less fundamental than inverse temperature.

What negative temperatures depend upon is not instability, but rather an upper bound on the energy of the system. Without that upper bound, negative temperatures are not possible. It's true that negative temperature systems are unstable, but the reason is not because instability or non-euqilibrium is inherent to negative temperatures. Rather, it's because you can't completely isolate a negative-temperature system. That means it will always be in thermal contact, even if only weakly, with a system that does NOT support negative temperatures (and thus can never get that hot). So it will always try to cool down to a positive temperature (and it does that by going MORE negative, not less).
 
I'm curious what inconsistencies you're referring to.

A more accurate reference would have been about the inconsistencies of statistical mechanics, which I often fail to distinguish from thermodynamics. Sorry.

LINK
Failure due to quantum effects

The law of equipartition breaks down when the thermal energy kBT is significantly smaller than the spacing between energy levels. Equipartition no longer holds because it is a poor approximation to assume that the energy levels form a smooth continuum, which is required in the derivations of the equipartition theorem above.[5][9] Historically, the failures of the classical equipartition theorem to explain specific heats and blackbody radiation were critical in showing the need for a new theory of matter and radiation, namely, quantum mechanics and quantum field theory.[11]


Figure 10. Log–log plot of the average energy of a quantum mechanical oscillator (shown in red) as a function of temperature. For comparison, the value predicted by the equipartition theorem is shown in black. At high temperatures, the two agree nearly perfectly, but at low temperatures when kBT << hν, the quantum mechanical value decreases much more rapidly. This resolves the problem of the ultraviolet catastrophe: for a given temperature, the energy in the high-frequency modes (where hν >> kBT) is almost zero.
 
+Ziggurat Didn't negative temperature arise because in certain QM processes, like lasers, adding heat decreases entropy?
 
+Ziggurat Didn't negative temperature arise because in certain QM processes, like lasers, adding heat decreases entropy?

Yes, but that only happens if there's an upper limit to the energy. If there's no upper limit to the energy, then you can't decrease the entropy by adding more energy. That's not exactly true in the case of lasers (the conduction band isn't the highest possible energy state, but it's the state you inject electrons into), but it's close enough to being true to be useful. But it is true of a paramagnet in a magnetic field. The lowest energy state is all the spins aligned with the field, the highest entropy state is half the spins aligned and half anti-aligned (using spin-1/2 for simplicity here), and the highest energy state is all spins anti-aligned. Both the lowest energy state and the highest energy state are low entropy states.

You can actually realize this sort of system with nuclear magnetic moments. These moments are only very weakly coupled to the rest of the world, so you can create negative temperature states and they'll persist for long enough to do measurements on it.
 
Last edited:
+Darwin123 +Ziggurat In any case, the Third Law only says something about absolute zero temperature being unreachable. There's no upper bound to either positive or negative temperature
in that theory. So as long as zero temperature is not achieved, the Third Law is not violated. I've also heard that if you go beyond infinite temperature, you end up
in the negative. The whole thing reminds me of projective geometry.
 
+Darwin123 +Ziggurat In any case, the Third Law only says something about absolute zero temperature being unreachable. There's no upper bound to either positive or negative temperature
in that theory.

<pedant>
Correction: there's no lower bound on negative temperatures. There is an upper bound: zero.
</pedant>

I've also heard that if you go beyond infinite temperature, you end up
in the negative. The whole thing reminds me of projective geometry.

Yes. As I said, inverse temperature is more fundamental than temperature. 1/T can go smoothly from positive to negative (but only in certain systems), passing zero on the way, causing T to diverge to positive infinity and then come back up from negative infinity. 1/T never has any discontinuities, and zero temperature corresponds to infinite 1/T, which you can't reach.
 
In response to a question about hyperreals I wrote this :

The problem is I think that most treatments on hyperreals come from set theory. I've used dual numbers before in a computer program to implement
automatic differentiation, so you could write a function only once in code, and automatically have its derivative as well for 'free'.
Dual numbers are kind of like complex numbers, except that the extra unit squares to zero instead of minus one. This can be seen as a representation of an
infinitesimal. The approach is called smooth infinitesimal analysis. This is a more number-centric approach to infinitesimal quantities that I like more than
the set-theoretic approach.
I was researching how to 'do' the reciprocals of the infinitesimals so I can get them to cancel to a finite quantity. This approach then can represent
hyperreals completely. The number has a scalar part and the null vectors from Conformal Geometric Algebra, the ones that represent origin and infinity,
and the wedge product between them. a s + b no + c ni + d no^ni. In this way I was able to work out the multiplication table.
Not sure where this leads though ...

+Ziggurat A reformulation of classical thermodynamics in terms of such numbers would make the entire temperature concept smooth. Do you think such an approach could
lead somewhere? Or has it already been done?
 
Ok then tell me this. Since all information about the system needs to be contained by the wave-function, how is the information for the wavelength stored therein.
Read what I wrote, TheAdversary, which is now at the end of the list of things you should learn:
  1. There is no such thing as a " de Broglie wave". There is no actual wave just the assignment of a wavelength to the momentum of particles. Particles get "wave-like" properties. Particles do not become waves.
  2. There is no such thing as a " de Broglie wave packet". There is no actual wave packet just the assignment of a wavelength to the momentum of particles. Particles get "wave-like" properties (not "wave packet-like" properties). Particles do not become wave packets.
  3. This is the de Broglie equation and has nothing to do with probability.
  4. Where "waves" appear in QM is the wave function which is not the de Broglie equation.
  5. There are many interpretations of QM.
    Some of these interpretations are deterministic, i.e. no probability distribution functions.
  6. One interpretation of QM is the Copenhagen interpretation where the wave function
  7. Maxwell's equations describe electromagnetic waves with wave lengths. A photon is the quantum of electromagnetic waves. Thus photons have wavelengths.
    The de Broglie hypothesis is that matter also has wave-like properties, e.g. you can assign a wavelength to massive particles.
  8. The wave function does not contain "all information about the system". It contains all of the quantum information , e.g. positions, momentum, spin.
  9. The wave function is not a wave and has no wavelength! When you plug a wave function into a wave equation ... you get waves with wavelengths!
The standard Schrödinger solution examples that PHYS 101 students do also include a particle in an infinite potential well which gives a wave with a wave length.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_particle
Needs a duh, TheAdversary, because this is what I told you already :D.
Non-relativistic quantum free particle
Mathematical description
...
The solution for a particle with momentum p or wave vector k, at angular frequency ω or energy E, is given by the complex plane wave:
...
Measurement and calculations
This is the normalization condition for the wave function. The wavefunction is not normalizable for a plane wave, but is for a wavepacket.
...
You stopped reading at the wrong point. In order to have a non-relativistic quantum free particle that exists somewhere in space we have apply the normalization condition.

After all, same wave function, as I already thought.
After plugging V=0 into the Schrödinger equation, we get a solution that is a specific wave function for a free particle which is a wave packet.
After plugging an infinite potential well into the Schrödinger equation, we get a solution that is a specific wave function for a confined particle which is a sine wave in the well and 0 elsewhere.
After plugging an finite potential well into the Schrödinger equation, we get a solution that is a specific wave function for a partially confined particle which is a mixed cosine and sine wave in the well and decreasing exponential outside of the well.
 
Last edited:
'There is no such thing as a "de Broglie wave". ...
A lie about "This turned out to be false" because you have not shown this to be false, TheAdversary.
The de Broglie hypothesis does not state that a massive particle is a wave. It assigns a massive particle a wavelength.

The wave function for a singe free photon is a wave packet, not a plane wave.

Some ranting about your expectations without any science.
FYI: Local hidden variable theories have just been ruled out by experiments that have filled the loopholes in past Bell's inequality experiments.
Physicists Prove That Spooky Action At a Distance Is Real
These need to be reviewed more to see if the loopholes are really filled and that no other loopholes exist but look promising.

Science facts for you:
  1. Maxwell's equations describe electromagnetic waves with wave lengths.
  2. A photon is the quantum of electromagnetic waves.
  3. Thus photons have wavelengths.

Hey, I agree with this!
Then we will see no more of the phrase "de Broglie waves" which means that massive particles are actual waves, will we, TheAdversary?
 
At the lowest microcosmic level, our description of nature requires probability distribution functions. The employment of wave or at least wave-like models accomplishes
many things at the same time/is a very optimized solution.
Consider the conjugate quantities position/momentum, orientation/angular momentum and time/energy. If probability is conserved between them the principle of
invariance holds. The wave solution accomplishes the probabilistic requirement as well as invariance.
I'm sure there are many mathematical details that I'm missing. But it's all done to ensure the basic physics principle of invariance in a probabilistic setting.
And in my opinion, the Laws of Thermodynamics, especially the Second Law, trump all others. Even the Schrodinger Equation looks like a diffusion equation.
Sometimes in the development of a science, it pays to take a step back and try to observe the whole. What are the real basic principles that echo through all the
different theories? Invariance and Entropy, mainly. Conservation and Destruction. Like life :)
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom