Income adjusted traffic violation fines

[theprestige]

It was more how you characterized them.

My bad. What did you object to, in my characterization? The main elements I included were:

• poor
• undeterred by the threat of traffic fines (as evidenced by their repeat offenses)
• generally uncaring about the consequences of repeated traffic offenses

The only reason I included "poor" on that list was to rebut the idea that traffic fines deter poor people. I don't think that's true. I think there are a lot of prudent people, who obey the law and manage their meager finances. Just like there are also a lot of rich people who obey the law. My impression is that traffic fines tend to deter prudent, law-abiding people of any economic class, and that traffic jackassery is endemic in all economic classes, in spite of the supposed deterrent effect.

 

[acbytesla]

My bad. What did you object to, in my characterization? The main elements I included were:

• poor

You don't necessarily know their income situation. But I'm sure many are poor.

• undeterred by the threat of traffic fines (as evidenced by their repeat offenses)

Undeterred? You don't know that. Additional traffic violations may have absolutely nothing to do with speeding, failure to stop at a light, driving under the influence or something else unsafe. They simply may make the calculation that transportation is a necessity

• generally uncaring about the consequences of repeated traffic offenses

You don't know this at all. Given how severe the consequences can be for driving with a suspended, it is very likely that they are generally very cautious.

The only reason I included "poor" on that list was to rebut the idea that traffic fines deter poor people. I don't think that's true. I think there are a lot of prudent people, who obey the law and manage their meager finances. Just like there are also a lot of rich people who obey the law. My impression is that traffic fines tend to deter prudent, law-abiding people of any economic class, and that traffic jackassery is endemic in all economic classes, in spite of the supposed deterrent effect.

You're wrong. I've been very poor. I have friends and relatives that are poor. I have seen the terror they have of the consequences of getting a ticket or dealing with unforseen expenses they can't afford. Many are walking on eggshells over that incident that might put them behind the 8 ball.

In contrast, a fine that has no effect. One that is barely a decimal point in the scheme of things doesn't change anyone's behavior.

 

[theprestige]

You don't necessarily know their income situation. But I'm sure many are poor.

Fair enough.

Undeterred? You don't know that. Additional traffic violations may have absolutely nothing to do with speeding, failure to stop at a light, driving under the influence or something else unsafe. They simply may make the calculation that transportation is a necessity

There are provisions for people who need to be able to drive to work. There are special driver's permits specifically for that situation.

You don't know this at all. Given how severe the consequences can be for driving with a suspended, it is very likely that they are generally very cautious.

I have not observed severe consequences for driving while suspended, in the 100+ hours of footage I've seen over the past few years. I haven't even seen severe consequences for 2nd, 3rd, 4th DUIs. As long as there's no injured parties or property damage, it's a slap on the wrist every time.

You're wrong. I've been very poor. I have friends and relatives that are poor. I have seen the terror they have of the consequences of getting a ticket or dealing with unforseen expenses they can't afford. Many are walking on eggshells over that incident that might put them behind the 8 ball.

Yes, prudent people are deterred. Not all people in lower income brackets are prudent. Again, I've seen 100+ hours of footage featuring people in lower income brackets being imprudent as ◊◊◊◊.

In contrast, a fine that has no effect. One that is barely a decimal point in the scheme of things doesn't change anyone's behavior.

People who don't abide by the law generally don't concern themselves with the consequences of not abiding by the law. This isn't exclusive to the upper income brackets. I don't think traffic fines have the deterrent potential you suggest.

 

[Brainster]

Sure you do. I've known people who get a ticket and can't afford to pay the ticket but keep on driving as they need transportation to get to work and other necessities and then they get pulled over because they couldn't pay the ticket and the world crashes on top of them. They lose their car, they lose their job, they lose their shelter.

And your proposal does nothing to help them, other than to say, "Cheer up, John D. Gottbucks had to pay a much larger fine."

 

[dirtywick]

I have not observed severe consequences for driving while suspended, in the 100+ hours of footage I've seen over the past few years. I haven't even seen severe consequences for 2nd, 3rd, 4th DUIs. As long as there's no injured parties or property damage, it's a slap on the wrist every time.

eventually your license gets revoked for driving while suspended after however many offenses, and driving under revocation can involve larger fines and potentially serious jail time. in wisconson for sure a 2nd offense dui is mandatory jail time. 3rd and 4th are lengthy and can turn potentially into prison time

a lawyer can get you out of a lot of it, if you can afford it

anyway fines are mostly a revenue stream for the city, which, fair enough because they have to pay the courts because you keep showing up there

 

[acbytesla]

Fair enough.


There are provisions for people who need to be able to drive to work. There are special driver's permits specifically for that situation.

There really isn't.

I have not observed severe consequences for driving while suspended, in the 100+ hours of footage I've seen over the past few years. I haven't even seen severe consequences for 2nd, 3rd, 4th DUIs. As long as there's no injured parties or property damage, it's a slap on the wrist every time.

Again, you're being influenced by select footage. Especially on YouTube where algorithms suggest additional videos based entirely on your previous video viewing. I watch a lot of YouTube videos. And I'm astonished at how one-sided and how easy it is to put yourself into a feedback loop.

Yes, prudent people are deterred. Not all people in lower income brackets are prudent. Again, I've seen 100+ hours of footage featuring people in lower income brackets being imprudent as ◊◊◊◊.

See my previous comment. And being imprudent isn't limited to the poor. If you know anything about Bill Gates, you will find an admitted history of repeated traffic violations and very imprudent driving. This was also a guy who spent more than $50K yearly for about two decades storing a unique Porsche model car in Customs that couldn't pass a US safety law. Not that it couldn't per se, but was made in such limited numbers that Porsche never or wouldn't spend the money and resources to have it be tested. Finally, the US created a law that allowed limited production cars to bypass that kind of testing.

People who don't abide by the law generally don't concern themselves with the consequences of not abiding by the law. This isn't exclusive to the upper income brackets. I don't think traffic fines have the deterrent potential you suggest.

Now you are talking about a tiny few. The only people like that are those where the consequences haven't caught up with them. Or those with either mental or drug issues.

 

[acbytesla]

And your proposal does nothing to help them, other than to say, "Cheer up, John D. Gottbucks had to pay a much larger fine."

It's not about cheering up the poor.

 

[Dabop]

eventually your license gets revoked for driving while suspended after however many offenses, and driving under revocation can involve larger fines and potentially serious jail time. in wisconson for sure a 2nd offense dui is mandatory jail time. 3rd and 4th are lengthy and can turn potentially into prison time

a lawyer can get you out of a lot of it, if you can afford it

anyway fines are mostly a revenue stream for the city, which, fair enough because they have to pay the courts because you keep showing up there

Here in Australia- is not a lengthy process- your first time will hurt straight away..

And it has nothing to do with 'towns or cities' here its a state controlled thing, but laws and regs are basically standardised Australia wide, and there is no 'moving interstate' to get away from it- lose your state issued licence and you are banned from driving anywhere in Australia or its territories...

Immediate minimum 24hr licence suspension (automatic)- and that the MINIMUM- that is what you get if you are 'just over' if you are 'staggering, falling over drunk' its more... (up to 3 months or more- automatic, no ifs/buts or maybes....)
Plus fines and even possible jail time...

Become a 'repeater' and its a lot more

Plus you don't 'automatically get your licence back' (and getting done for a suspended/cancelled licence adds even more to your 'bill'

Being charged with drink driving

Drink driving is an offence. Penalties include fines, imprisonment and licence disqualification

www.qld.gov.au

Because these are court ordered, nonpayment isn't an 'option'- they (SPER or State Penalties Enforcement Registry) can (and will) go to your place and take property/items to the value of the owing fines lol or take other actions (wages garnishment or asset/bank account seizures)

Fine enforcement

Learn about the enforcement actions that can be taken if your SPER debt is not paid.

www.qld.gov.au

So it REALLY is stupid to even consider drink driving (or any other law breaking while driving) here- because SPER applies to ALL fines (even parking fines lol)

Sure they won't sell your house to recover a single non payment of a $50 parking fine- but they COULD.... (and clock up enough, and they will come after your with ALL the various collection options they have available to them....)

 

[dirtywick]

first offense in wisconsin is typically jail until you’re sober or someone can pick you up. obviously in the us there’s a pretty wide range of laws penalties since those types of offenses aren’t federal law, and wisconsin is one of the most lenient on dui. mitigating factors like bah apply here as well. for example, illinois will revoke your license for life after the 3rd offense i believe.

there’s also classes you need to take to get your license back and fees to pay and potentially breathalyzer locks and always increases insurance and an sr22 requirement and so on.

refusal to pay is a complete seperate issue as well

anyway my point was i wouldn’t consider any of it a slap on the wrist necessarily. i was speaking specifically towards the jail sentence

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Here in Australia- is not a lengthy process- your first time will hurt straight away..

And it has nothing to do with 'towns or cities' here its a state controlled thing, but laws and regs are basically standardised Australia wide, and there is no 'moving interstate' to get away from it- lose your state issued licence and you are banned from driving anywhere in Australia or its territories...

Immediate minimum 24hr licence suspension (automatic)- and that the MINIMUM- that is what you get if you are 'just over' if you are 'staggering, falling over drunk' its more... (up to 3 months or more- automatic, no ifs/buts or maybes....)
Plus fines and even possible jail time...
View attachment 67578
Become a 'repeater' and its a lot more
View attachment 67579
Plus you don't 'automatically get your licence back' (and getting done for a suspended/cancelled licence adds even more to your 'bill'

Being charged with drink driving

Drink driving is an offence. Penalties include fines, imprisonment and licence disqualification

www.qld.gov.au

Because these are court ordered, nonpayment isn't an 'option'- they (SPER or State Penalties Enforcement Registry) can (and will) go to your place and take property/items to the value of the owing fines lol or take other actions (wages garnishment or asset/bank account seizures)

Fine enforcement

Learn about the enforcement actions that can be taken if your SPER debt is not paid.

www.qld.gov.au

So it REALLY is stupid to even consider drink driving (or any other law breaking while driving) here- because SPER applies to ALL fines (even parking fines lol)

Sure they won't sell your house to recover a single non payment of a $50 parking fine- but they COULD.... (and clock up enough, and they will come after your with ALL the various collection options they have available to them....)

I'm going to suggest that for a first offence, something that hurts, badly, but doesn't restrict you long term could be a good option (dependant on good enforcement for those who won't learn the lesson).

 

[Dabop]

I'm going to suggest that for a first offence, something that hurts, badly, but doesn't restrict you long term could be a good option (dependant on good enforcement for those who won't learn the lesson).

The thing is that you have to be living under a rock literally if you dont know that even a simple 'one drink over' DUI is going to be a major impact on your life here- which is why at many pubs you have things like the 'nominated driver program' where the nominated driver gets 'free drinks' all night (softdrinks of course lol), every pub in Australia has a breathaliser next to the door basically- you have to be a 'short bus rider' to get a DUI in the first place lol- cause RBT stops are very common here...

TV ads, newspapers, billboards, radio, online ads- all are constantly (especially in the holiday periods) hammering home the message- don't break the law- or pay the price (be that drink driving, speeding or whatever...)

Police launch Operation X-Ray Mistletoe as Queensland nears 300 lives lost - Queensland Police News

Queensland Police Service (QPS) has launched its annual Christmas and New Year road safety blitz, Operation X-Ray Mistletoe, urging motorists to make safe

mypolice.qld.gov.au

A current DD ad running atm...

They arent as 'in your face' as some of the earlier ones though....

 

[P.J. Denyer]

The thing is that you have to be living under a rock literally if you dont know that even a simple 'one drink over' DUI is going to be a major impact on your life here- which is why at many pubs you have things like the 'nominated driver program' where the nominated driver gets 'free drinks' all night (softdrinks of course lol), every pub in Australia has a breathaliser next to the door basically- you have to be a 'short bus rider' to get a DUI in the first place lol- cause RBT stops are very common here...

TV ads, newspapers, billboards, radio, online ads- all are constantly (especially in the holiday periods) hammering home the message- don't break the law- or pay the price (be that drink driving, speeding or whatever...)

Police launch Operation X-Ray Mistletoe as Queensland nears 300 lives lost - Queensland Police News

Queensland Police Service (QPS) has launched its annual Christmas and New Year road safety blitz, Operation X-Ray Mistletoe, urging motorists to make safe

mypolice.qld.gov.au

A current DD ad running atm...

They arent as 'in your face' as some of the earlier ones though....

I actually agree with you, but also most people are stupid. I'm not saying leg them off, I'm saying make the punishment hurt, but part of me doesn't want to put too long term consiquences on being stupid once.. But also part me me disagrees with that. TBH, part of me knows I did so stupid things in my younger days, and a good hard kick would have brought me in line before time did, another part of me is perfectly aware of just how significant the consequences of even a moment of stupidity behind the wheel can be.


There's a line between the one time lapse and a bad attitude behind the wheel, bug I admit I don't know how you differentiate between the two for practical law enforcement purposes.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

That Australian list of penalties starts at blood alcohol levels of "Over 0.00 but less than..." etc.

What's the threshold? How long after drinking a beer can anyone lawfully drive?

 

[dirtywick]

I actually agree with you, but also most people are stupid. I'm not saying leg them off, I'm saying make the punishment hurt, but part of me doesn't want to put too long term consiquences on being stupid once.. But also part me me disagrees with that. TBH, part of me knows I did so stupid things in my younger days, and a good hard kick would have brought me in line before time did, another part of me is perfectly aware of just how significant the consequences of even a moment of stupidity behind the wheel can be.


There's a line between the one time lapse and a bad attitude behind the wheel, bug I admit I don't know how you differentiate between the two for practical law enforcement purposes.

when it comes to views on drinking and driving, i think it’s worth noting attitudes towards alcohol have shifted quite a bit over the last few decades.

 

[Darat]

when it comes to views on drinking and driving, i think it’s worth noting attitudes towards alcohol have shifted quite a bit over the last few decades.

I've mentioned it before but in England & Wales we had to create new laws in the 1960s to criminalise "drink driving offences". Prior to that if you killed or badly injured someone when you were a drunk driver it was hard to get juries to convict, especially for the likes of manslaughter, juries simply didn't see anything inherently wrong with drunk driving, everyone drove home from the pub.... As society changed in its attitudes we've ended up the other way around, people often think people get off too lightly in drink driving offences.

As an aside: England and Wales had legislation that made drunk driving illegal prior to the introduction of the motor car.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

when it comes to views on drinking and driving, i think it’s worth noting attitudes towards alcohol have shifted quite a bit over the last few decades.

True, and rightly so, although there are holdouts.

 

[theprestige]

That Australian list of penalties starts at blood alcohol levels of "Over 0.00 but less than..." etc.

What's the threshold? How long after drinking a beer can anyone lawfully drive?

In the US, it's the impairment, not just the blood alcohol level. If you're found to be impaired (a matter of judgement by the investigating officer), the blood alcohol level is considered in tandem with that.

 

[acbytesla]

In the US, it's the impairment, not just the blood alcohol level. If you're found to be impaired (a matter of judgement by the investigating officer), the blood alcohol level is considered in tandem with that.

The problem of course with that is the subjectivity that gives police. Where they arrest people for DUI after blowing 0 on the breathalyzer.

 

[ahhell]

I've mentioned it before but in England & Wales we had to create new laws in the 1960s to criminalise "drink driving offences". Prior to that if you killed or badly injured someone when you were a drunk driver it was hard to get juries to convict, especially for the likes of manslaughter, juries simply didn't see anything inherently wrong with drunk driving, everyone drove home from the pub.... As society changed in its attitudes we've ended up the other way around, people often think people get off too lightly in drink driving offences.

As an aside: England and Wales had legislation that made drunk driving illegal prior to the introduction of the motor car.

The US is similar, but I think it was more like the 80s when we started to take drunk driving seriously. 90s in some places.

Anecdote, there was a fella in my home town who got a DUI for riding his horse to the bar, in the 90s.

 

[acbytesla]

The US is similar, but I think it was more like the 80s when we started to take drunk driving seriously. 90s in some places.

Anecdote, there was a fella in my home town who got a DUI for riding his horse to the bar, in the 90s.

Yeah, the US is generally tough on DUI