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Incest in a lift

LOL!


I don't know why but I find that to be the most interesting part of the story. He paid his sister to have sex with him. The word "loser" doesn't begin to cover it.

It's hard to tell which is worse: offering to pay your sister for sex, or accepting money from your brother for sex.

But what do I know? Let's all together start the usual excuse machine: "prostitution is just a business deal between two consenting adults"; "there is nothing wrong with it...", etc., etc., etc.
 
Hey now! He gave her the money as a brother, not for payment. Don't go slandering the couple. ;)

"I love her like a brother -- David Greenglass". (Woody Allen).

But it's always nice to know there's somebody who has found a way to his sister's heart (he turned right at the end).
 
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I can vouch for the fact that there are in fact many people of similar looks and dress in Scotland.

We don't all look ruggedly handsome like Bill Travers or Barbara Dickson unfortunately.
 
It's hard to tell which is worse: offering to pay your sister for sex, or accepting money from your brother for sex.

But what do I know? Let's all together start the usual excuse machine: "prostitution is just a business deal between two consenting adults"; "there is nothing wrong with it...", etc., etc., etc.

I honestly don't see why would I need to blame act X just because it happened together with act Y. I mean, presumably they were also breathing at the time, but that doesn't make breathing wrong just because it happened together with doing incest.

Similarly it seems to me like one can still see nothing wrong with prostitution, but see something wrong with the incest part.

Briefly: they're different concepts, you know?
 
I honestly don't see why would I need to blame act X just because it happened together with act Y. I mean, presumably they were also breathing at the time, but that doesn't make breathing wrong just because it happened together with doing incest.

Similarly it seems to me like one can still see nothing wrong with prostitution, but see something wrong with the incest part.

Briefly: they're different concepts, you know?

Well said.
 
Look at the foreheads, the low brows, the mangled teeth, the vacuous looks in their eyes -- indeed, these brutish cavemen who create backwards, ancient laws and the police who enforce them are truly an embarrassment to the human race.
 
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C'mon, at least they were male and female. Can you imagine if they were two brothers? That would be, you know, weird...
 
You don't find anything morally corrupt in abandoning and child under your care in order to facilitate a crime?

Just how abandoned was he and what was this "crime"?

You don't see that having sex in a public place deviates from what is considered moral or right or proper or good. Even though it's been pointed out that it's a crime.

Oh is this the "crime" you were referring to? They clearly picked the eleva.....lift because it offered them some privacy. Or so they thought.

You don't see that having sex with a sibling deviates from what is considered moral or right or proper or good. Even though it's been pointed out that it's a crime.

This is also a "crime"? It certainly deviates from the norm but I don't see that it is immoral or improper. Even if they produced a child one generation of inbreeding is not going to produce anything other than a normal child.
 
I honestly don't see why would I need to blame act X just because it happened together with act Y. I mean, presumably they were also breathing at the time

Heavily, I'll bet.

Briefly: they're different concepts, you know?

A society where there is nothing wrong with prostitution and it's just another business is not likely to keep considering incest as too bad. Once sex is for you not the result of deep feeling and relationship, but a quick business act, why not with your brother? Why is that so much worse than with a total stranger? Not everything two concepts that are logically independent are also causally independent.

Divorce and illegitimacy share a similar relatioship. In theory one can consider easy divorce a good thing and illegitimacy a bad one. But as easy divorce became the norm, more and more people decide not to get married at all, but, since it turns out people still want children, illegitimacy increased. All this was of course predicted well in advance, but those who did so were constantly told divorce is one thing and illegitimacy quite another.
 
People ruin their lives in many ways, God knows, but still, I must say, "paying your sister for sex and getting caught" is really up there as the claim for the biggest loser in human history, however trivial it might seem compared to, say, dying from a famine or war or "just" getting fired and starting to drink.
 
A society where there is nothing wrong with prostitution and it's just another business is not likely to keep considering incest as too bad. Once sex is for you not the result of deep feeling and relationship, but a quick business act, why not with your brother? Why is that so much worse than with a total stranger? Not everything two concepts that are logically independent are also causally independent.

Divorce and illegitimacy share a similar relatioship. In theory one can consider easy divorce a good thing and illegitimacy a bad one. But as easy divorce became the norm, more and more people decide not to get married at all, but, since it turns out people still want children, illegitimacy increased. All this was of course predicted well in advance, but those who did so were constantly told divorce is one thing and illegitimacy quite another.
Slippery slopes. We are slouching away from our golden age when women kept their mouths shut and black people rode in the back of the bus. Better that unhappy people remain married (and many continue to be abused) to maintain the veneer of tranquility.
 
"What does their family tree look like, a stump?"- Bill Hicks
 
Seriously, though, there really are things more depraved than this, seeing how it seems to have been consensual sex between adults.

Actually, more this than anything else. Not to promote or defend incest, but the only thing that is of any real issue, to me, is that they chose such a public place to engage in their perversion. Sex between adult siblings hardly seems unusually bizarre, yet alone criminal.
 
Heavily, I'll bet.



A society where there is nothing wrong with prostitution and it's just another business is not likely to keep considering incest as too bad. Once sex is for you not the result of deep feeling and relationship, but a quick business act, why not with your brother? Why is that so much worse than with a total stranger? Not everything two concepts that are logically independent are also causally independent.


...snip...

Yet the evidence is against your opinion - societies that treat prostitution as a business do not drop their legislation against incest.
 
A society where there is nothing wrong with prostitution and it's just another business is not likely to keep considering incest as too bad. Once sex is for you not the result of deep feeling and relationship, but a quick business act, why not with your brother? Why is that so much worse than with a total stranger? Not everything two concepts that are logically independent are also causally independent.

Divorce and illegitimacy share a similar relatioship. In theory one can consider easy divorce a good thing and illegitimacy a bad one. But as easy divorce became the norm, more and more people decide not to get married at all, but, since it turns out people still want children, illegitimacy increased. All this was of course predicted well in advance, but those who did so were constantly told divorce is one thing and illegitimacy quite another.

Ahh, the slippery slope argument. I was wondering when it would come sliding down some hill into this talk ;)

1. The first problem with it though is that there is no historical reason to believe that once people stop criminalizing or vilifying X, then they'll also stop caring about Y and Z that are at best vaguely or weakly connected.

E.g., if you look at the 1400's and 1500's, when people started charging more or wanting higher wages, the argument could be made and HAS been made that once it's ok for people to care more about lining their pockets than about the price of food for their fellow man, all sorts of evils are sure to follow. And seriously, in Christian Europe, even trying to charge higher prices than the arbitrary prescribed ones could get you at best vilified by the church, and at worst get you dragged before a church or noble's court. And let's not even get into such evil stuff as "usury", where someone profits from the misfortune of their fellow man, at least if you listened to the bishops ranting against it. Surely a society fallen so low as to allow that as normal, would be ok with all sorts of other ways of being antisocial.

But then came this dude called Adam Smith and it turns out that profit is actually a valuable market mechanism, instead of some human failure.

Did we start being ok with all sorts of other evils if we allowed usury and profiteering? Did we start also considering fraud as normal? No, not really. The slippery slope never happened. In fact, as harming fellow humans goes, we live in less harmful times than ever.

2. Actually we have historical evidence that that link doesn't exist.

Prostitution was legal for most of the last millennium, at all levels, and practiced to extremes you wouldn't even dream of these days. They even had whole streets (with such quaint names like, say, "Grope#### Lane", where the missing word is an expletive for female genitalia) dedicated to it. Or we have such stuff as Emperor Sigismund thanking the city of Konstanz in writing for providing some 1500 prostitutes for attendants of the the church Council of Konstanz.

Yet somehow we don't see them starting to consider boning one's sister as ok too.

And prostitution is still ok in a lot of countries. E.g., it's a legal and regulated business here in Germany. But sex between siblings is still a criminal offense.

So exactly how does it follow that "A society where there is nothing wrong with prostitution and it's just another business is not likely to keep considering incest as too bad."? And when is it supposed to finally happen, if countries where prostitution is and was legal since the 1200's, still show no sign of starting being ok with siblings humping? Does it take another thousand years for that slippery slope, or what? :p
 
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Travis, how can you not know this is a crime. The OP linked to an article about the result of a criminal trial.

The child was without supervision in a station. You know as well as I do to what level he was abandoned. You may not know how many children a year are killed on British railways. I think it’s about half a dozen, often due to the electrified lines. As I said eleven before is probably old enough, this part is not the crime. But there's a strong suggestion that the pair betrayed a trust to look after the child. Not the peak of morality, some would even say immoral. It seems we differ on this which is fine I'm unlikely to be using you as a baby sitter anyway.

We've discussed the level to which a lift affords privacy quite enough in this forum of late. Let’s just say I wouldn't be best pleased to be in Motherwell station having to get my children in a buggy from one platform to another whilst the means of doing so was occupied by this copulating pair. The non consensual voyeuristic participant in their sexual escapades presents the potential harm here, and that's why there are public indecency laws. In this case whilst the public area they chose was quiet and infrequently used, the most likely users would be the disabled and children in buggies. The latter being the greater concern. Forget about the emotional rhetoric of "won't somebody please think of the children" just consider that the likely users of a public space are a factor in sentencing for public indecency cases.

Incest between siblings is also a crime. When it comes to the closest relationships such as brother and sister it's naive of you to say that "one generation of inbreeding is not going to produce anything other than a normal child" especially when I linked to the dangers earlier. I shall do so again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding#Genetic_disorders

"A 1994 study found the progeny of first cousins, in Pakistan, indicate morbidity levels to be some 1% to 4% higher than in the offspring of unrelated couples."

With full siblings, the levels of consanguinityWP are four times that of first cousins and so the morbidity levels will be much much higher. Yes there's every chance that such a child would be just as healthy as any other but there’s a far greater risk than usual of premature birth, infant mortality, birth defects, slower growth rate, smaller adult size and loss of immune system function. Whilst this explains the cultural taboo that you seem not only immune to but unable to recognise as either prevailing or justified, the point you keep failing to address is that the reason for the law is not this eugenic reason but to place a ringfence around the predatory relationships that characterise many but not all examples. At least that’s what the few examples of sentencing I’ve seen seem to suggest. Let’s not forget the emotional damage to a child from discovering the circumstances of their birth. I have a friend who once told me that he was the offspring of his father sleeping with his sister. I could tell that the knowledge was a burden to him. A father sleeping with a daughter shows a clear cut betrayal of trust. Daughters are conditioned to do what their fathers tell them to do. Even past the age of consent this alone raises questions about consent. It’s not so clear cut with an older brother’s semi paternal role but his being placed on the sex offender’s register along with the evidence of payment being made does raise the similar questions.
So it seems that you’re happy to accept a definition of depraved as "deviating from what is considered moral or right or proper or good”
I recognise that in both my country and yours paying your little sister for sex is generally considered to deviate from the moral. On the individual level this may be subjective and if you’re enough of a sophist to disregard what is generally considered over what your anomalous personal consideration, then I have no strong logical argument with which to change your mind.
The same would seem to go for “right” or “good” these too are essentially subjective even if there is high level of concordance amongst the majority of the subjective opinions. The fact that these actions were against the law is not sufficient to say that they deviated from the moral, right or good. Unjust laws do exist. I have shown the objective harms that are risked by such courses of action. It seems that you would accept the laws to be just in the case of non-consensual activities and I have indicated the circumstantial evidence that makes me surprised at your assumption that this was entirely consensual. Yet I can’t argue with jurisprudence, innocent until proven guilty. Without the full facts of the case I’m not sure exactly what the court decided they were guilty of.
Yet when it comes to proper I feel that the law does provide us with an objective standpoint. Surely their convictions tell us that their activities were improper.
 
A society where there is nothing wrong with prostitution and it's just another business is not likely to keep considering incest as too bad. Once sex is for you not the result of deep feeling and relationship, but a quick business act, why not with your brother? Why is that so much worse than with a total stranger? Not everything two concepts that are logically independent are also causally independent.

Divorce and illegitimacy share a similar relatioship. In theory one can consider easy divorce a good thing and illegitimacy a bad one. But as easy divorce became the norm, more and more people decide not to get married at all, but, since it turns out people still want children, illegitimacy increased. All this was of course predicted well in advance, but those who did so were constantly told divorce is one thing and illegitimacy quite another.

What's up with the slippery slope arguments? That's the same argument Christians use for stopping gay people from marrying. "Oh no if we allow gay people to marry, pretty soon polygamy will be acceptable and people will be able to have sex with children!" Yeah, I would quote what my father said on the issue but it’s highly offensive. He uses the word "faggot" 3 times a day :wide-eyed.
 
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