Implications of Scottish Independence

[Rolfe]

The bottom line is that people don't have to swallow the bilge that politicians, the media or even comedians spout. But I fear that for many people, democracy begins and ends at the ballot box, and in the intervening 4-5 years it's a question of just letting the elected get on with it regardless.

Indeed. I was mainly thinking about the politicians who claimed (in the 1970s) that an independant Scotland would be a third world country on a par with Bangladesh (which was at the time suffering from a very severe famine), and in more recent years like Albania.

It's not that long ago that a Labour MP asked a question in Westminster to the effect that had the government given consideration to the barriers to be put in place to prevent England being flooded by refugees if and when an independent Scotland became a failed state.

This is the sort of garbage we've been putting up with for too long. That and the comments on the Daily Fail blogs.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

In my head it was an appeal to solidarity, but you appear to have taken it differently.

I can't understand how anyone can put this forward as a serious consideration, after they've thought about it for a bit. To suggest that a country should forego its independence to assist in the gerrymandering of another country's electoral system does not a good argument make.

Rolfe.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Lothian's post to UW and me wasn't actually adressing what UW was talking about, which was the belittling of Scotland and the Scots that has been going on for generations. All I can say on that is, if he hasn't seen it, he must live in more high-minded circles than I do.

I honestly have hardly ever heard this belittling of Scotland you talk of. I'm serious. Maybe things are different outside of London but in all my experience there is no animosity or disrespect for the Scots.

 

[stokes234]

I can't understand how anyone can put this forward as a serious consideration, after they've thought about it for a bit. To suggest that a country should forego its independence to assist in the gerrymandering of another country's electoral system does not a good argument make.

Rolfe.

It is possible that an implication of scottish independence will be the easier downtrodding of the underpriviledged in the remaining parts of the UK. That's all i'm saying. You're not required to give a damn, of course.

 

[Rolfe]

I didn't say I didn't give a damn. I said that as an argument against national self-determination, it didn't have much traction to put it politely. England is responsible to its own voting pattterns, not Scotland.

Rolfe.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

Hopefully the splitters will remain a minority.

I have no desire to be part of a second rate Britain, and Scots should have no desire to be part of a third rate Scotland.

I find the concept of a foreign border on such a tiny island quite ridiculous. It's like a roommate drawing a line down the middle of the dorm room.

I'm English in the same way I support Newcastle United, I'm a Brit in the ways that really matter. Likewise I'll argue with a Scot in the same way I rag on my mates, just let someone else try and have a go at Scotland though and it's a wall of brotherhood.

British nationalism needs a shot in the arm.

 

[martu]

I agree in part with that last, though not with the detail of it. I think that desire for independence is based much more on feeling and being part of a separate nation group, than on pure economic self-interest. I have no respect for someone who simply wants to cut a part of their own country adrift because they will be better off without them.

I have no respect for people going to all this effort just so they can feel more like some imaginary 'nation'. You don't need or want for anything different from the rest of us in the UK wherever we live.

"Inferiority"? It's one way of putting it. When you have been governed by another country for 300 years, repeatedly assured that you are in fact inferior and incapable and made mock of, it does tend to rub off. Take away Scotland's resources and insist they were never hers to begin with, give back pocket money and demand gratitude in return, and attract the brightest and best "down south", and it has an effect.

Rolfe.

I feel sorry for you that such an irrational and outdated idea, that one belongs to some mythical 'nation', is so important. Grow up and try to work with us (by 'us' I mean the rest of the human race which is not split into arbitrary groups) not against us. In the face of tyranny nationalism can be a useful tool for freedom but when the country you live in was recently ruled for a long time by two Scottish Prime Ministers with very Scottish cabinets the idea you were governed by another country is laughable.

 

[Rolfe]

Thank you for your contributions.

Rolfe.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

"Inferiority"? It's one way of putting it. When you have been governed by another country for 300 years, repeatedly assured that you are in fact inferior and incapable and made mock of, it does tend to rub off. Take away Scotland's resources and insist they were never hers to begin with, give back pocket money and demand gratitude in return, and attract the brightest and best "down south", and it has an effect.

Rolfe.

I know you are perhaps past the first flush of youth Rolfe but didn't realise that you were quite that old.

 

[Darat]

Big mining industry. When wales had a mining industry we didn't do so badly compared to england, but that got shut down. I'm guessing australia does a tad better out of tourism as well.

If you tried shutting off the sprinklers once in a while it might help with the tourism (oh and nuke Rhyl).

 

[Rolfe]

If you tried shutting off the sprinklers once in a while it might help with the tourism (oh and nuke Rhyl).

It isn't fit for humans now....


Oh wait.... That doesn't rhyme....

Rolfe.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Grow up and try to work with us (by 'us' I mean the rest of the human race which is not split into arbitrary groups) not against us.

I know you personally are opposed to the concept of nation states, but would you have any evidence of there being large numbers of similar minded people in the world?
From what I've seen, identification with a particular nation or group is almost universal, and attempts to suppress this do not usually succeed.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

I know you are perhaps past the first flush of youth Rolfe but didn't realise that you were quite that old.

That's nothing on the Irish. Some of them are still holding grudges from medieval times.

 

[Rolfe]

I know you personally are opposed to the concept of nation states, but would you have any evidence of there being large numbers of similar minded people in the world?
From what I've seen, identification with a particular nation or group is almost universal, and attempts to suppress this do not usually succeed.

The idea that the human race is not, in fact, "split into arbitrary groups", is not one that actually survives contact with reality.

Rolfe.

 

[Corsair 115]

It seems that the last election in Canada saw the end of a viable Free Quebec movement...

Don't be so sure. It doesn't take much to inflame separatism in the province. It may be at a low ebb at the moment but that can easily change.

 

[Rolfe]

I saw an article about this by an SNP author.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/speakers-corner/2397-quebec-nats-wiped-out.html

What do the Canadians think of his take on it? It's all a bit over my head.

Rolfe.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

NSO is included.

Don’t know where 10% comes from but if you compare like with like, as the Scottish Government does here, the deficit in Scotland is higher per head than in the UK.

Of course everyone who does not have to make the decisions promises to spend less and earn more than the current lot.

An independent chancellor could cut subsidies and change the rates but the point made by these figures is that overall the net tax burden on the Scottish people needs to increase to offset the subsidy currently provided to Scotland by the rest of the UK.

NSO is explicitly not included in the revenues figure you used in your division unless I am misunderstanding the term 'Non North Sea Revenues'

The 10% of GDP is my approximation of what the UK deficit was in the year 2008/09; I think it was slightly more than that but I quickly googled it this morning and it was of the order 10%.

I think you are missing the more fundamental point about lacking control of the economy and the reason why its silly to try to use numbers like these to form a direct comparison with an independent Scotland.

For the UK government it makes no financial odds if they take income in England or Scotland and whether they spend in England or Scotland. For a Scottish government it would. That's a game changer.

Put in a bog standard example - I work my wife doesn't. That arrangement works out well when we are a couple. It would not be appropriate to say my wife couldn't afford to live by herself because she would have no income if she left me and that it would remain that way in perpetuity.

Hopefully the splitters will remain a minority.

I have no desire to be part of a second rate Britain, and Scots should have no desire to be part of a third rate Scotland.

Someone was asking for an example of belittling?

. Grow up and try to work with us (by 'us' I mean the rest of the human race which is not split into arbitrary groups) not against us. In the face of tyranny nationalism can be a useful tool for freedom but when the country you live in was recently ruled for a long time by two Scottish Prime Ministers with very Scottish cabinets the idea you were governed by another country is laughable.

You know what? We're happy to work with 'you' whoever you are. But we'd rather work with you on our own terms and the way we want to than to be spoken for by others.

Personally as a Scot I think we'd be a more productive part of the International Community if we did so without having to negotiate our way through the petty little Englander mentality that permeates certain sectors of society in the UK.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

Someone was asking for an example of belittling?

I'm sorry, but if you think Scotland would be a mover and shaker in the international community you're high on the cool aid. Britain is important on the international stage, and quite affluent.

Tear out Scotland and the remainder of Britain would lose power and wealth. Scotland would end up third rate, just another little country in the EU. Sorry if that hurts your pride, but that's how I see it.

Scotland adds a great deal to the greatness of Great Britain, but it's a greater than the sum of the parts deal.

Personally as a Scot I think we'd be a more productive part of the International Community if we did so without having to negotiate our way through the petty little Englander mentality that permeates certain sectors of society in the UK.

Oh you poor thing, it must be awful to be belittled. I'm glad no Scots don't do that to the English.


Some Scots have watched too much Braveheart and assorted manufactured history. We've been essentially one big happy family for centuries but some people want to poop in the bed.

I repeat, I hope the splitters remain a vocal minority and that the family stays together despite getting drunk every New Years and having a bust up.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Personally as a Scot I think we'd be a more productive part of the International Community if we did so without having to negotiate our way through the petty little Englander mentality that permeates certain sectors of society in the UK.

That would odd given the reason for the union in the first place.

What's also odd is how the same person can believe in the principles behind a national health service on the one hand and want to keep wealth in Scotland at the expense of everyone else in the UK on the other.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

I'm sorry, but if you think Scotland would be a mover and shaker in the international community you're high on the cool aid. Britain is important on the international stage, and quite affluent.

Tear out Scotland and the remainder of Britain would lose power and wealth. Scotland would end up third rate, just another little country in the EU. Sorry if that hurts your pride, but that's how I see it.

Scotland adds a great deal to the greatness of Great Britain, but it's a greater than the sum of the parts deal.

Oh you poor thing, it must be awful to be belittled. I'm glad no Scots don't do that to the English.

Some Scots have watched too much Braveheart and assorted manufactured history. We've been essentially one big happy family for centuries but some people want to poop in the bed.

I repeat, I hope the splitters remain a vocal minority and that the family stays together despite getting drunk every New Years and having a bust up.

There's a big difference between being a mover and shaker in the international community (I don't think I particularly aspire to be that) and being 'a third rate Scotland'. You don't think there might be other options between those two?

An independent Scotland would be the best Scotland Scotland can be and if it isn't we'd have no-one to blame but ourselves.

I don't regard small countries like Switzerland, Denmark or Austria as third rate. If you do I think that says more about you than it does about me.

If you think bigger is better then why not let Scotland go free and join up with France? That'd be even better surely?

I think you've pretty much made a good case for Scottish Indepence with the entirety of your posts. I suggest you campaign heavily with the Unionist parties for keeping the Union.