Immigration Issues and Racism.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, up here off of RedWood and 116th, it's the same. ....

Hey neighbor. I have an advantage in that I speak Spanish. I doubt your workers were documented, judging from the work they were doing and their lack of English. I think quite a few of us have been those employers we are talking about, even if indirectly.

I don't worry about who is doing the work so much as I am quite worried about the population explosion. And I certainly don't want to have to make another claim against my no-fault car insurance coverage if someone hits my car and is uninsured. But both those issues cross the ethnic barriers. Someone already smashed my car in a parking lot and drove off. And while I didn't see them, I wasn't in an Hispanic neighborhood. And if you drive Novelty Hill Road over there in Redmond, you know what that upper middle class suburb on top of the hill did to the traffic congestion.

The grocery stores are more crowded. The streets certainly are. Our towns are becoming quite bilingual. Interestingly though, we use a local apartment complex pool near here all the time. I would guess I have heard around 10-15 different languages spoken around that pool and on a fairly regular basis. And I work for about 100 different employers. They have employees from many countries with little or no English skills.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That was my first thought. It's cheaper to hire an undocumented worker as opposed to an American citizen to whom you'll be legally required to pay minimum wage or at least some kind of a living wage under the table. Going the other way, because those employers would rather pay (I won't generalize and say that they will) the cheaper wage, unemployed blacks and other American citizens aren't going to be looking to those jobs because of the low wages.

Just because I'm pretty sure it all comes down to the purse, I'm willing to wager that cracking down on companies who hire undocumented works to pay them crap wages and actually enforcing (no, you can not have a hit of what I'm smoking) a minimum wage for all (I said, no, you can't have some!) workers would severely lessen the problems (ex: burden on social services) that are often subscribed to illegal immigration.

And yes, I'm totally an immigration expert so I'm totally right on all of this. It's true.

Is that last sentence a joke?

I hear about all those employment issues you describe. But what I see directly are workers who have jobs in maintenance, laundry, kitchens, and fast food restaurants. Around here Spanish speakers are stocking the grocery shelves, and working in every restaurant in town, literally. There's a nursing home I do some work for that have nurses aides, kitchen and maintenance workers that are all Spanish speakers. These are not jobs like the ones you describe. They don't earn a lot. They do work full time. And the employers would hire anyone, they don't pick and choose from a workforce they think won't file worker's comp.

In addition, medical facilities aren't allowed to turn people away because they have no green cards. You can file WC claim. All you need is a fake SSN. No one at the State Department of Industrial Insurance is going to do the INS's job anymore than the local clinic or hospital is. I know because that is in my field of expertise. I'm a nurse practitioner certified in occupational health.

 

[LostAngeles]

Is that last sentence a joke?

I hear about all those employment issues you describe. But what I see directly are workers who have jobs in maintenance, laundry, kitchens, and fast food restaurants. Around here Spanish speakers are stocking the grocery shelves, and working in every restaurant in town, literally. There's a nursing home I do some work for that have nurses aides, kitchen and maintenance workers that are all Spanish speakers. These are not jobs like the ones you describe. They don't earn a lot. They do work full time. And the employers would hire anyone, they don't pick and choose from a workforce they think won't file worker's comp.

In addition, medical facilities aren't allowed to turn people away because they have no green cards. You can file WC claim. All you need is a fake SSN. No one at the State Department of Industrial Insurance is going to do the INS's job anymore than the local clinic or hospital is. I know because that is in my field of expertise. I'm a nurse practitioner certified in occupational health.

Did you not see the, "It's true!" My words were clearly written and you... yes, it was a joke.

Does, "Spanish-speaking," necessarily mean, "illegal"? Just because there are Spanish-speakers working at a low paying job, it does not necessarily follow that they are here illegally because they (a)speak another language and (b) work a low paying job.

 

[mumblethrax]

So basically you're saying my statement relied on poor data but you agree with the statement?????

Why bother pointing out some error in data collection then say you agree with the data anyway? Or are you saying Hispanics have equally high unemployment rates?

Just what point were you trying to make?

It would have been difficult for me to object to the data in my first post in this thread, since you hadn't presented any.

But you've shifted the goalposts a bit here: you were originally comparing black Americans with Mexican immigrants, and now you're comparing black and hispanic people in general.

My objection is not that your data is flawed (although I do think we have some good reasons to suspect that undocumented migrants are undercounted in unemployment statistics), but that the comparison doesn't make sense: you're conflating race/national origin with immigration status.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Did you not see the, "It's true!" My words were clearly written and you... yes, it was a joke.

Does, "Spanish-speaking," necessarily mean, "illegal"? Just because there are Spanish-speakers working at a low paying job, it does not necessarily follow that they are here illegally because they (a)speak another language and (b) work a low paying job.

No, it doesn't mean illegal but I was trying to find some descriptive term other than Hispanic which is even less likely to mean illegal. I think it's safe to assume if there are 11 million undocumented workers in the USA who have come from south of our borders that those who speak Spanish and do not speak English are more likely to be undocumented. And, I know personally that some are undocumented since I talk to them. They don't deny it in conversations.. I have some good friends here that aren't here legally. We have been discussing the situation.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It would have been difficult for me to object to the data in my first post in this thread, since you hadn't presented any.

But you've shifted the goalposts a bit here: you were originally comparing black Americans with Mexican immigrants, and now you're comparing black and hispanic people in general.

My objection is not that your data is flawed (although I do think we have some good reasons to suspect that undocumented migrants are undercounted in unemployment statistics), but that the comparison doesn't make sense: you're conflating race/national origin with immigration status.

First, I am comparing cultures, not race. Genetic research has revealed there is no such thing as race divisions among humans.

Second, I wasn't consciously switching from immigrant to all Hispanics. I only said the unemployment rate among blacks was interesting considering how low it was among Hispanics. I don't even know if the BLS data includes illegal immigrants. They would have to collect unemployment to be included in some of the data.

The fact we have all these people here taking low paid jobs at the same time one ethnic groups is experiencing higher unemployment than other ethnic groups indicates that ethnic group isn't willing or can't get those jobs. And my comment was about the work ethic of a culture. And, in particular, a specific group within that culture because all blacks are not poor and do not have the same values. And of course all poor blacks don't have the same values either but clearly some poor blacks are not motivated to take the same jobs poor Hispanics are taking.

 

[mumblethrax]

First, I am comparing cultures, not race. Genetic research has revealed there is no such thing as race divisions among humans.

Not really true, but neither here nor there; the unemployment statistics report race on the basis of self-identification, not genetic testing. Regardless of whether it makes sense to speak of race as a taxonomic construct, it certainly is a social construct.

Second, I wasn't consciously switching from immigrant to all Hispanics. I only said the unemployment rate among blacks was interesting considering how low it was among Hispanics. I don't even know if the BLS data includes illegal immigrants. They would have to collect unemployment to be included in some of the data.

Ok, but if you re-read the post I was responding to, you'll notice that the word hispanic isn't in it. You were talking about Mexican immigrants. If you meant something else, you can't very well blame me for not picking up on it.

The BLS statistics are independent of unemployment insurance statistics.

And of course all poor blacks don't have the same values either but clearly some poor blacks are not motivated to take the same jobs poor Hispanics are taking.

This is not clear at all.

 

[LostAngeles]

No, it doesn't mean illegal but I was trying to find some descriptive term other than Hispanic which is even less likely to mean illegal. I think it's safe to assume if there are 11 million undocumented workers in the USA who have come from south of our borders that those who speak Spanish and do not speak English are more likely to be undocumented. And, I know personally that some are undocumented since I talk to them. They don't deny it in conversations.. I have some good friends here that aren't here legally. We have been discussing the situation.

OK, I just wanted to clear that.

Personally, the issue has many aspects and many faces to it (humanitarian, economic, security, social, etc.) and that even though I myself made an incredibly simple suggestion, it's far more complex than most of the discussions I've seen on it. For me it's hard to know where to draw the line.

Because English is the primary language it should be learned and to my understanding, immersion is the best way to learn an additional language. But then what about something like emergency preparedness information? Do we not translate pamphlets on that into other languages? ESL education in the public schools is also a big factor. Do we reasonably expect them to learn both all the subjects they need to and a second language? (In high school. I understand it that kids around eight and under find it easier to aquire language) Should we give them regular subject classes in their native language, do we force English, do we find some compromise between the two like having something like an interpreter? And that's just the language part of this whole thing.

I'm thinking it might be good to start another thread that hopefully won't end up like most threads around this part to try and discuss the whole thing.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Genetic research has revealed there is no such thing as race divisions among humans.

Not really true, but neither here nor there...

Yes, it is true and you should review the literature before going on about that because you are behind in your reading to have made that statement. Start here with a Google search for 'genetic race' If you still don't understand how we can look like we fit into groups but it is an illusion as far as genetic divisions are concerned then PM me or start a new thread and we can discuss it. It is a hard paradigm shift for most people when they first hear about our lack of genetic race divisions. They have a million questions since looks are inherited and we look like we fit into groups. But it turns out in this case looks are indeed deceiving. But I assure you it isn't a matter of being PC or the latest fad. No human groups have been isolated long enough from one another to have become distinguishable by genetic characteristics.

The rest of our exchange is getting tedious. If you want to discuss how I worded something, I give. Communication is a two way street. If you misunderstood me or I wasn't careful in wording something, that's fine. Is it clear now?

Or is there still something about my post you want to ask me about? I don't understand your last comment about something not being clear so you'll have to explain.

 

[mumblethrax]

No human groups have been isolated long enough from one another to have become distinguishable by genetic characteristics.

This is not true at all. Look up Lewontin's fallacy, and check out the recentish issue of Scientific American on the question. Whether or not race exists depends on what you mean by race (personally, I think we should abandon the word, rather than assigning it to a new referent), but human beings can be sorted into genetic groupings, which in turn are correlated to ancestry.

Or is there still something about my post you want to ask me about? I don't understand your last comment about something not being clear so you'll have to explain.

You're commiting a correspondence error by attributing higher unemployment rates among black people to a character flaw (poor work ethic, lack of motivation).

 

[Renfield]

I came across an interesting article about the whole immigration issue today. The writer has this a solutiont that might be both effective and fitting.

It is this. Lets adopt MEXICO'S laws regarding illegal immigration.

Itm surprised no one has suggested it before, especially considering how much Mexicans have complained about how immigrants are treated here, and how much their president has to say about how we should do things. It seems they have some of the same issues, from people coming to their country because things are even WORSE where they come from.

Just kind of confirms what I think anyone who looks at it fairly already knows. We bend over backwards for immigrants in this country like few others do.


http://washingtontimes.com/commentary/fgaffney.htm

The Mexican solution

FRANK J. GAFFNEY JR.
By Frank J. Gaffney, Jr.
April 4, 2006

The Congress has received lots of free advice lately from Mexican government officials and illegal aliens waving Mexico's flag in mass demonstrations coast-to-coast. Most of it takes the form of bitter complaints about our actual or prospective treatment of immigrants from that country who have gotten into this one illegally -- or who aspire to do so.
If you think these critics are mad about U.S. immigration policy now, imagine how upset they would be if we adopted an approach far more radical than the bill they rail against that was adopted last year by the House of Representatives -- namely, the way Mexico treats illegal aliens.

 

[LostAngeles]

Dude, rule 4.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This is not true at all. Look up Lewontin's fallacy, and check out the recentish issue of Scientific American on the question. Whether or not race exists depends on what you mean by race (personally, I think we should abandon the word, rather than assigning it to a new referent), but human beings can be sorted into genetic groupings, which in turn are correlated to ancestry.

I've read that brief before but Edwards has one big problem. Choosing as person's outward appearance to make the designated group. Why not choose blood type? How about choosing intelligence? And where are the lines one should divide the groups by?

I won't address this any further in this thread. But I may if I have time start a new one on the statistical argument made by Edwards that ignores the arbitrary features one categorizes race by.

You're commiting a correspondence error by attributing higher unemployment rates among black people to a character flaw (poor work ethic, lack of motivation).

I don't recall stating the reason, only the observation that blacks were a group (which I gave all the usual caveats) and that their unemployment rates indicated they weren't availing themselves of the same jobs Hispanics were taking. But given that you admit the observation is at least somewhat correct, what reason would you attribute the failure of obtaining unemployment in light of the work other groups are finding?