Immigration Issues and Racism.

[mumblethrax]

Well here's an unpopular racist observation. Why is the unemployment rate so high for blacks at a time when Mexican immigrants are finding work all over the country? I understand all the issues of accepting lower paid jobs but isn't that what one should do when there is no other job available?

There's a built-in selection bias in your observation.

There's also the problem that you're assuming that Mexican immigrants are employed all the time, and that there's no black market in black communities.

Then you're overlooking the cost to an employer in seeking American citizens rather than undocumented migrant workers.

 

[Mephisto]

The problem is that the vast majority of illegal imigrants ARE Mexicans. I don't see how this is "racist".

For merely suggesting this, you are racist.

Well, Skeptic IS quoting a fact, but since Mexico borders the U.S. one would think that the majority of illegal immigrants would come from Mexico. For the record, "Mexicans," is a term that's often applied rather loosely - If they're dark-skinned, they speak Spanish, they're Mexican and probably here illegally.

I have, however, run into illegal immigrants from El Salvador, Guatemala and Columbia, and I've heard there are illegal immigrants from Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia . . . but they apparently aren't as much of a concern since they'll end up working out-of-sight in a factory, instead of out in the open in gardening or construction.

 

[shecky]

So are you saying blacks would be turned down for jobs here that illegals would take? Somehow I doubt that is the main factor which differs between the working and unemployed. Construction, domestic, and food service jobs are often paid under the table whether you have a legit SSN or not.

Possibly, as would whites, and teens, etc, all the usual supects thought to be deprived of jobs. One of the anecdotal things I've heard is that the immigrant labor gets the work done, where the locals are just too unreliable. Maybe the immigrants are just hungrier?

I agree about the nature of under-the-table jobs. Work that is currently paid under-the-table will likely remain so even if all illegal immigrants were replaced with full citizens.

 

[jj]

Border security has been poor for decades.

Of course it's been poor for decades. I mean, how else do the rich people drive down the cost of labor?

Come on, guys, get with the program.

It will be interesting to see how the repugnican's support base of ultra-rich owners deal with this threat to their labor base.

 

[Renfield]

I have to part company with liberals when it comes to the whole immigration thing. I don't see how its racist to insist that certain ethnic groups not be exempted from the law, or that its racist to enforce the laws we have regarding our borders, or racist to want to protect our borders and investigate the backgrounds of people who are coming into this country.

 

[jj]

I have to part company with liberals when it comes to the whole immigration thing. I don't see how its racist to insist that certain ethnic groups be exempted from the law, or that its racist to enforce the laws we have regarding our borders, or racist to want to protect our borders and investigate the backgrounds of people who are coming into this country.

Wow, what a great pile of straw men. Trying to make a bonfire, Renfield?

Please show, with convincing, clear (as opposed to contrived or contextually-extracted evidence) that "liberals" think what you claim.

I guess it is coming up election time, the vilification is ramping up.

 

[Renfield]

Wow, what a great pile of straw men. Trying to make a bonfire, Renfield?

Please show, with convincing, clear (as opposed to contrived or contextually-extracted evidence) that "liberals" think what you claim.

I guess it is coming up election time, the vilification is ramping up.

I watched some of the speaches they were making in congress, read some news articles. They talk like any attempt to get control of the situation is really about putting a stop to immigration. They are against laws that stiffen penalties against employers that hire illegals, are against enforcing the laws we currently have about immigration. Any attempt to stop people from moving freely across the border is attacked as racist. I've seen it time and again.

 

[Renfield]

Of course it's been poor for decades. I mean, how else do the rich people drive down the cost of labor?

Come on, guys, get with the program.

It will be interesting to see how the repugnican's support base of ultra-rich owners deal with this threat to their labor base.

I actually agree with you there. I don't think anything really will be done about it, since its such a profitable situation at the moment for the people who run the country. Republicans will pass a few more laws to save face at election time, then not bother enforcing them.

 

[CapelDodger]

So are you saying blacks would be turned down for jobs here that illegals would take?

I'm suggesting that official US citizens might be more problematic than illegals, from an employer's point of view. They're more likely to sue, for instance.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There's a built-in selection bias in your observation.

There's also the problem that you're assuming that Mexican immigrants are employed all the time, and that there's no black market in black communities.

Then you're overlooking the cost to an employer in seeking American citizens rather than undocumented migrant workers.

What selection bias and how would you know since I did not cite my source? And how do you know what assumptions I did or didn't make? Why don't you present your contradictory data instead of assuming I made a false statement of facts?

I merely heard the stats while paying partial attention to a news report unrelated to the current unrest in the immigration scene. It was on the telly but not being sure which station I was even listening to, here are two recent news accounts with similar information as I believe I heard.

News account of Jan #s

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Web site, the U.S. economy is doing fairly well. The number of unemployed persons fell to 7.0 million in January, and the unemployment rate decreased to 4.7 percent, seasonally adjusted. The unemployment rate had ranged from 4.9 to 5.1 percent during most of 2005. The jobless rate for adult men declined to 4.0 percent in January. For other major worker groups-adult women (4.3 percent), teenagers (15.3 percent), whites (4.1 percent), blacks (8.9 percent), and Hispanics (5.8 percent)—unemployment rates were essentially unchanged.

News account of Feb #s

Both the number of unemployed persons, 7.2 million, and the unemployment rate, 4.8 percent, were little changed in February. A year earlier, the number of unemployed was 8.0 million, and the jobless rate was 5.4 percent.

Following a decline in January, the unemployment rate for adult men edged up to 4.2 percent in February. The jobless rates for the other major worker groups--adult women (4.3 percent), teenagers (15.4 percent), whites (4.1 percent), blacks (9.3 percent), and Hispanics (5.5 percent)--showed little or no change over the month. The unemployment rate for Asians was 3.2 percent, not seasonally adjusted.

Now since you think the numbers are skewed, what data do you have to counter that? And just what black market are you referring to? Seasonally adjusted numbers are also available at the BLS if you care to see if they differ. Also, the BLS admits that the category of Hispanic and white is intermingled so they collect data on race as well as ethnic identity. I believe the Hispanic category is ethnic identity.

My comments were about observations, not about reasons, justifications, judgments, or condemnation. So don't assume any motives or sentiments by my post either, BTW. The observations I speak of are the fact that the 11 million undocumented workers in the news currently are taking jobs that supposedly citizens don't want. So one would expect an ethnic group that had a high unemployment rate to have access to those same jobs. Do you believe blacks are working and collecting unemployment insurance? Do you believe they prefer no job if the choice is between low paid work and unemployment insurance? Why are poor Hispanics willing to take the same jobs poor blacks appear unwilling to take? Or do you think poor blacks are indeed taking the same jobs? Or do you think employers are discriminating even for the lowest paid jobs? Do you think employers believe an under the table arrangement with an undocumented immigrant is somehow less risky than paying a citizen under the table?

I doubt the latter. Lots of people are paid under the table in construction, food service and domestic jobs as I mentioned earlier. Why would a worker turn in an employer for not deducting withholding taxes?


As a side note I found the following article extremely interesting though if anyone is interested in commenting we shouldn't hijack this thread. I don't have anything to say about it, just wanted to share it for what it's worth.

Chinese news report on the USA's human rights record.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm suggesting that official US citizens might be more problematic than illegals, from an employer's point of view. They're more likely to sue, for instance.

Got any evidence there? There might be a few or even more than a few who plan to rip workers off by not paying in the end. That person might want a person who cannot complain. But that has to be a very small number of people.

There are Spanish only speaking workers all over my town of Bellevue, WA. I know they don't all have green cards. They have jobs in construction, some of them even act as their own contractors. They have jobs at restaurants, in the local nursing homes, and as housekeepers, nannies and gardeners. These are not jobs which the employers don't want a legal worker, in fact, with the exception of nannies, I suspect for most of the jobs the employers would prefer the person was legal. Using an unlicensed contractor is not to one's benefit.

In the nursing homes they do a background check which a person can pass if they have an SSN that fits their name. And you can get an SSN without being a citizen by having some fake ID. As a teenager, I ran away from home and got an SSN under a fake name. At that time you didn't even need ID. I still have the card. Maybe I should sell it?

There are multiple levels of illegal workers here. Some have regular jobs that anyone could have. Those workers on the news who stand on the corner waiting for someone to drive by and give them work are not representative of the entire workforce. The news isn't going to get a reporter into the local nursing home asking to see the green cards of the aids, kitchen and the laundry workers. So the public gets a skewed picture, as usual.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I actually agree with you there. I don't think anything really will be done about it, since its such a profitable situation at the moment for the people who run the country. Republicans will pass a few more laws to save face at election time, then not bother enforcing them.

It would be interesting to find out what really has changed in the last decade or so. There has been an undeniable spike in the influx of Spanish speaking workers which seems to have accelerated in just the last few years. Maybe the border was always open and we are just now seeing the results of the population explosion south of the border. Maybe the immigrants are just now fanning out around the country since the border states can no longer accommodate the numbers of immigrants.

I believe both Republican and Democrats are split on what measures should be taken to deal with the problem. This is not something along party lines and even the oppressive Republican leadership cannot control the flocks on this issue.

I would like to see our leaders deal with the specific problems individually. The border is an issue. The 11 million people already here is an issue. The people who have kids born here is an issue. The burden on local infrastructure is an issue. The overpopulation in Mexico, a country with one of the highest birth rates in the world is an issue.

But it's wishful thinking to believe our current incompetent leadership will have any solutions. Just hope we can hold out until these guys are voted out, and hope that they will not be able to hold on through talking points propaganda or fake threats we must unite against or DeBold voting machines and other election shenanigans.

 

[mumblethrax]

What selection bias and how would you know since I did not cite my source? And how do you know what assumptions I did or didn't make? Why don't you present your contradictory data instead of assuming I made a false statement of facts?

The problem with your question is that you compare those who have already gone through a selection process (immigration, legal or otherwise) with those who haven't. They aren't like quantities.

Now since you think the numbers are skewed, what data do you have to counter that?

I don't think I said that the numbers are skewed. It's well-known that the unemployment rate among African Americans is relatively high.

And just what black market are you referring to? Seasonally adjusted numbers are also available at the BLS if you care to see if they differ. Also, the BLS admits that the category of Hispanic and white is intermingled so they collect data on race as well as ethnic identity. I believe the Hispanic category is ethnic identity.

I mean work which is not reported as employment in BLS statistics, for whatever reason.

So don't assume any motives or sentiments by my post either, BTW.

I'm just pointing out some of the problems in this comparison. Please don't take this as an accusation of racism or anything similar.

 

[shecky]

Got any evidence there? There might be a few or even more than a few who plan to rip workers off by not paying in the end. That person might want a person who cannot complain. But that has to be a very small number of people.

This is a good point. However, it works both ways. Even in a underground economy, a crappy employer gets a bad reputation, and finds more difficulty finding labor. He either has to clean up his act, or pay more for employees who'll tolerate his crap. Of course, this sort of thing happens in native countries, too.

It would be interesting to find out what really has changed in the last decade or so. There has been an undeniable spike in the influx of Spanish speaking workers which seems to have accelerated in just the last few years. Maybe the border was always open and we are just now seeing the results of the population explosion south of the border. Maybe the immigrants are just now fanning out around the country since the border states can no longer accommodate the numbers of immigrants.

It would be interesting. In your area, there may be a spike in Spanish speaking workers. In my parts, it's been the same ever since I was a kid.

Perhaps the general healthiness of the US economy could account for lots of immigration. Unemployment rates in the US have been relatively low for quite a while, suggesting that those 12 million illegal immigrants must be keeping busy.

 

[jj]

I actually agree with you there. I don't think anything really will be done about it, since its such a profitable situation at the moment for the people who run the country. Republicans will pass a few more laws to save face at election time, then not bother enforcing them.

Yup, yup, don't it just ****, though?

 

[jj]

There are Spanish only speaking workers all over my town of Bellevue, WA.

Well, up here off of RedWood and 116th, it's the same. I found that a crew that showed up to work on my landscaping had a simple response when I tried to tell them something, they dialed a cell phone and handed it to me. I told the guy on the other end what to do, handed the cell phone back, the guy smiled nodded, and waved me out of my driveway.

Are they documented? I have no idea. I sure as heck hope so. They work hard and do the job right, even if I have to pantomime "don't pull the ornamental strawberry but go ahead and pull all the chickweed and giant hogweed you want".

 

[CapelDodger]

Got any evidence there? There might be a few or even more than a few who plan to rip workers off by not paying in the end. That person might want a person who cannot complain. But that has to be a very small number of people.

There are other reasons to sue - industrial injury, for instance. 'Murricans are (perhaps unfairly) regarded as a litigious folk. An illegal probably can sue - no doubt they occasionally do - but the looming threat of the INS is bound to be a disincentive.

You mention 11m illegals having jobs, but not all of them are in the workforce and have full-time jobs. Many are day-labourers, there's work some days and other days not. It's under-employment rather than unemployment.

Probably more important is the way illegals are recruited for work. When someone wants 50, 80, 100 field-hands for a few weeks I doubt they recruit directly. They'll contract out to gang-bosses, so it's probably their recruitment policies that are most important. jj's story is an example. I'm sure he dealt legitimately with a legitimate contractor. The contractor (or sub-contractor, let's not stint on the cut-outs) hired the illegals, if such they were.

These circumstances are a recipe for gangsterism, of course, and that tends to concentrate on ethnic (family, clan) lines. That's where it's most secure. This shows up very clearly in the history of US immigration (which is pretty much synonomous with the history of the US when you take internal migration into account).

 

[CapelDodger]

Ornamental strawberry? That's like, what, plastic fruit or something? My strawberry plants are pretty as a picture, but that's not what they're for.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The problem with your question is that you compare those who have already gone through a selection process (immigration, legal or otherwise) with those who haven't. They aren't like quantities.


I don't think I said that the numbers are skewed. It's well-known that the unemployment rate among African Americans is relatively high.


I mean work which is not reported as employment in BLS statistics, for whatever reason.


I'm just pointing out some of the problems in this comparison. Please don't take this as an accusation of racism or anything similar.

So basically you're saying my statement relied on poor data but you agree with the statement?????

Why bother pointing out some error in data collection then say you agree with the data anyway? Or are you saying Hispanics have equally high unemployment rates?

Just what point were you trying to make?

 

[LostAngeles]

...

Then you're overlooking the cost to an employer in seeking American citizens rather than undocumented migrant workers.

That was my first thought. It's cheaper to hire an undocumented worker as opposed to an American citizen to whom you'll be legally required to pay minimum wage or at least some kind of a living wage under the table. Going the other way, because those employers would rather pay (I won't generalize and say that they will) the cheaper wage, unemployed blacks and other American citizens aren't going to be looking to those jobs because of the low wages.

Just because I'm pretty sure it all comes down to the purse, I'm willing to wager that cracking down on companies who hire undocumented works to pay them crap wages and actually enforcing (no, you can not have a hit of what I'm smoking) a minimum wage for all (I said, no, you can't have some!) workers would severely lessen the problems (ex: burden on social services) that are often subscribed to illegal immigration.

And yes, I'm totally an immigration expert so I'm totally right on all of this. It's true.