I'm part Mexican!

[joobie]

Mm? I'm gonna guess that like me you're white.
I'm also gonna guess that unlike me you are not an uneducated working class dog trying to find honest work.
Because if you were then you would see that unless your skin is brown and you are related to the manager there is no work to be found.

i know a half dozen lily white people in california who have gotten blue collar working class unskilled labor or unskilled office type jobs in the last 2 months. maybe your attitude has something to do with your inability to find employment.

 

[Juniversal]

That's cool, but this it isn't a "sentiment." It's a simple fact: our choices carry consequences. We decide if we'll accept those consequences or not. To say that other people have decided it for us by providing those consequences puts the responsibility for our choice on them, not on us.

Is that where it belongs?

I don't generally use the word in question, the "n-word," for my own reasons. I am making that choice. No one is making it for me, and no one can allow me or not allow me to use the word. If I were to maintain that, I would be stating clearly that I willingly let others manipulate me, and all I know to do about it is feebly object on an internet forum.

Now, if I do choose to use it, I am also choosing to accept any repercussions for it. I can't expect to use it and not face objections, since I know it's considered an objectionable word.

And that's what's really being said by some who holler about "not being allowed" to use it: "I not only want to be able to say it, but to say it without facing any penalty or censure." Um, well, no. That's not part of the deal, sorry. It's a crap little word, with a ton of negative baggage, and you can't use it without toting some of that baggage along. Even the people who do use it are aware of that.



Again, though, that's not what I'm addressing. I'm talking about who chooses for you what you can say and what you can't? And I'm making the argument that even in the face of possible repercussions, even in the face of an outright threat of harm, it is still you who makes this choice.

This relates to the OP in a direct way: the sentiment, "it's okay, I can speak poorly of them, because I'm one of them," is an attempt to defer the consequences of objectionable opinions by "in-grouping." I'd call it fallacious, though I'm not really sure of the type.

But her reasoning is likely something to the effect that criticism of a group should come only from within the group, because only the members of the group really understand the dynamics. Outsiders do not and cannot understand, and so their criticism is often perceived as bigoted or racist, by that very virtue.

I do feel what the girl in the OP said was a fallacy. I just don't know how to articulate my reasons.

I actually agree... I don't think we're actually in disagreement.

 

[Chupacabras]

Pipeline emphasized in red those words in my post.

El cree que borraste "ilegal" en la segunda parte con malicia. Está viendo monos con tranchetes en un tema que siempre viene con mucha carga pasional.

Re the OP: I couldn't find the numbers quickly, but I understand the US has a yearly quota for new immigration admittance which varies/depends on the country of origin. For years now, the quota for Mexico has been deliberately kept in nada, which reminds me of the Cuban embargo and its practical results.

I also agree vehemently that we Mexicans must do our part - the best part - to stop the need for people to search for luck in the US. But where many people express disdain for our people, culture or government, they also ignore that the world is interconnected, and you may end up being partly responsible for what you blame others about.

That lady is nurturing the very ghost she wants to destroy. Alas, how many people plan for "a better future" with a flawed strategy.

On a tangentially related note, back in the day Mexico had an illegal immigration problem when a lot of people from China came to settle, mainly in the NW states. They didn't want to the US. Here we had commerce, growth and a promising future. We don't want to talk about it, but we eventually blamed them for theft and rape (and bad businesses practices, etc...) and then persecuted and systematically killed them more shameless than Jews in WWII. I put this here for some perspective: its natural things change over time, but when did that Global Village concept went down the drain?

ETA: the Mexican persecution of Chinese took place in the first half of the 20th century.

 

[pipelineaudio]

On a tangentially related note, back in the day Mexico had an illegal immigration problem when a lot of people from China came to settle, mainly in the NW states.

Fill them in on how illegals from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras are treated in Mexico today. I think many of the "anti-minutemen" posters on the JREF would be quite shocked

 

[I Ratant]

i know a half dozen lily white people in california who have gotten blue collar working class unskilled labor or unskilled office type jobs in the last 2 months. maybe your attitude has something to do with your inability to find employment.

.
I see lots of workers at the Mall that move from shop to shop as the shops close and new ones open.
Anyone looking for work seems to be able to find it.

 

[Amapola]

I understand that part of the point, I just wish to make an objection, that in no way should the victim of a crime be subject to a crime just because they can't find a solution that is acceptable to the criminal. I understand that Mexico is a mess, all of our families have strong Mexican tie. In the border states its hard to escape from. However, this does not excuse the criminals who won't take their turn in line the same as all the honest immigrants do. I'd like all the money in your bank account, but I dont think there's a moral imperative for you to give it to me

Again, I don't think we are communicating well here, so let me see if I can clarify. In no way am I saying that illegal immigration is OK. What I am saying is, that if Mexico's citizens were as prosperous as those of say, Canada, there would not be an illegal immigration issue at all. Naturally Mexico will be the ultimate one to solve this, but in the meantime, for all I know, *you* might have some brilliant idea that would help.

So far all USA efforts to solve the issue have not worked. Bigger fences, more guards, stricter laws - these have not worked. I see nothing wrong with trying to solve the problem in a different way. Trying to solve a problem does not excuse the law breaker. It's just trying to solve the problem.

In a very real way illegal immigration actually hurts Mexico, as Yomero pointed out. Their work force is here in the USA, building houses, working in shops, etc. when they could be in Mexico, working to build a stronger Mexico. I don't think the illegal immigration situation is good for either country, which just makes me all the more anxious for the issues to be solved. In the meantime, I don't believe that racism or hatred will help the situation at all. (This is in reference the lady in the OP, not to pipelineaudio.) The illegal immigrants are human beings. Who knows what I would hazard, if I were in their shoes, and that desperate? But you see, having sympathy for the human beings trapped in this does not mean I think illegal immigration is OK.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I used to grumble about Mexicans taking over my home state of Texas, then I remembered that we Europeans took it over from them first.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Again, I don't think we are communicating well here, so let me see if I can clarify. In no way am I saying that illegal immigration is OK. What I am saying is, that if Mexico's citizens were as prosperous as those of say, Canada, there would not be an illegal immigration issue at all.

I understand, and I agree. It would be nice if Mexico was prosperous again. It would help them be prosperous if they got to keep some of their brain trust

 

[Juniversal]

Again, I don't think we are communicating well here, so let me see if I can clarify. In no way am I saying that illegal immigration is OK. What I am saying is, that if Mexico's citizens were as prosperous as those of say, Canada, there would not be an illegal immigration issue at all. Naturally Mexico will be the ultimate one to solve this, but in the meantime, for all I know, *you* might have some brilliant idea that would help.

So far all USA efforts to solve the issue have not worked. Bigger fences, more guards, stricter laws - these have not worked. I see nothing wrong with trying to solve the problem in a different way. Trying to solve a problem does not excuse the law breaker. It's just trying to solve the problem.

In a very real way illegal immigration actually hurts Mexico, as Yomero pointed out. Their work force is here in the USA, building houses, working in shops, etc. when they could be in Mexico, working to build a stronger Mexico. I don't think the illegal immigration situation is good for either country, which just makes me all the more anxious for the issues to be solved. In the meantime, I don't believe that racism or hatred will help the situation at all. (This is in reference the lady in the OP, not to pipelineaudio.) The illegal immigrants are human beings. Who knows what I would hazard, if I were in their shoes, and that desperate? But you see, having sympathy for the human beings trapped in this does not mean I think illegal immigration is OK.

I've thought about this myself and share the same sentiment. If Mexico was to stabilize economically and socially the illegal immigration problem would in part fix itself.


Less incentive to cross the border (in search of greater stability in America) = far less attempting to migrate to the United States. Needless to say it's easier said then done and Mexico's drug trafficking problem has become so bad that I don't know how much stability they'll realistically see sans drug legalization in this country.


As long as the U.S. market remains lucrative and violent drug cartels have the power they do I don't see things changing to any great degree and no doubt (the border states in particular) will remain a funnel into the U.S. for disaffected Mexicans. I put it a similar way as you. If America had the same degree of economic and crime problems that Mexico has, Canada would seem that much more appealing and no doubt Americans would be (literally) dying to get into Canada, though it would likely be a much simpler task considering the relative absence of barren deserts that Mexico has as well as our traffic/interstate infrastructure.

 

[shecky]

Fill them in on how illegals from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras are treated in Mexico today. I think many of the "anti-minutemen" posters on the JREF would be quite shocked

How Mexico treats immigrants from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras is irrelevant. Why should the US take its cues from Mexico when it comes to law enforcement?

I understand that part of the point, I just wish to make an objection, that in no way should the victim of a crime be subject to a crime just because they can't find a solution that is acceptable to the criminal.

Then why make it a crime at all? The crime of immigrating illegally is a victimless one. The only reason it exists is because Americans want it to exist. They vote on it with their dollars every day.

The real injustice is that the US treats the labor market as a centrally planned one, rather than a more or less free market, the way it does with goods and services. If one really dislikes illegal immigration, the best thing to do is liberalize immigration. This eliminates the need for super policing of the border, it allows immigrant workers to work legitimately. It increases the pool of labor, increases economic activity, increases demand for real estate. Not only does it encourage immigrants from sating demand for labor, it also allows immigrants to return home easily when the job market gets tighter, since crossing the border is less risky.

 

[shecky]

Mm? I'm gonna guess that like me you're white.
I'm also gonna guess that unlike me you are not an uneducated working class dog trying to find honest work.
Because if you were then you would see that unless your skin is brown and you are related to the manager there is no work to be found.

A simple glance at the state of California will show you the irreversible damage the Mexicans have done to the United States.
They do suck the social services dry.
There are schools every other block on every street filled with Mexican children who's parents do not belong in this country legally.
Business staffed to the hilt with under the table non tax paying payrolls.

Those business all owned by white people just like you that think it's not PC to call a citizen from Mexico a Mexican.
People just like you that love the Mexican work force that illegally saves your company tons of money, while at the same time screws the state and country that made your company possible to begin with.

NO! I do not want to buy a tamale!
NO! I do not want to buy a ripped DVD of a movie you recorded at the theater with your camcorder!
NO! I do not need another taco truck parked outside my home!
NO! I do not need another burrito joint opening up in the local strip mall with free government grant money.
NO! I do not need another Mexican market that refuses service to all non brown people!

If any of the non brown people dare to complain about the refusal of service or not being able to find a job then they are horrible racist scum
who want to mow down little brown baby's at the border with machine guns.

I am an American. I have to compete in the job market with Mexicans who work for less but make more because they don't pay taxes.
Taxes needed to keep the state and Federal governments going.

Immigration is at least half the reason why the Federal government is now shutting down. Also half the reason social security is destroyed.

But hey! Because some other white people over 100 years ago that I am no way related to owned slaves I am supposed to keep my mouth shut and embrace their culture.

Anything less makes me a racist scum who likes to mow down the little brown babies at the border with machine guns.

Your rant makes you sound pretty racist. Why? Because it's thin on facts, and highlights your dislike for all things Mexican. When you make unsubstantiated claims about who pays taxes, who gets the welfare, and then use that lack of information to justify your disdain for taco stands and brown people in general, you will be pegged as a racist. Because that's what racists do.

 

[I Ratant]

How Mexico treats immigrants from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras is irrelevant. Why should the US take its cues from Mexico when it comes to law enforcement?

.
We had better sure hope/pray that never occurs!
.

Then why make it a crime at all? The crime of immigrating illegally is a victimless one. The only reason it exists is because Americans want it to exist. They vote on it with their dollars every day.

.
It becomes a crime and creates victims when the illegals intrude on social services.
If they don't access the various social services... food, medicine, shelter, and provide these things legally to themselves, then there is no impact on society.
Otherwise, it's taking what hasn't been earned.

 

[Taarkin]

.
It becomes a crime and creates victims when the illegals intrude on social services.
If they don't access the various social services... food, medicine, shelter, and provide these things legally to themselves, then there is no impact on society.
Otherwise, it's taking what hasn't been earned.

What do natural born citizens do to earn these things that illegal immigrants don't?

 

[I Ratant]

What do natural born citizens do to earn these things that illegal immigrants don't?

.
Mums and Daddums pay taxes?

 

[slingblade]

What do natural born citizens do to earn these things that illegal immigrants don't?

Pay taxes, for the most part.

If you're illegal, you can't pay taxes. You'll be found out. Of course, some natural-born citizens also dodge their taxes, but no one thinks that because they're natural-born, it's okay that they do so. Americans don't much care for tax-dodgers.

 

[trvlr2]

Pay taxes, for the most part.

If you're illegal, you can't pay taxes. You'll be found out. Of course, some natural-born citizens also dodge their taxes, but no one thinks that because they're natural-born, it's okay that they do so. Americans don't much care for tax-dodgers.

I would disagree about the last statement.
It would seem America loves tax dodgers. And even encourages them.

 

[slingblade]

I would disagree about the last statement.
It would seem America loves tax dodgers. And even encourages them.

I guess that depends on the circles in which you run.


Not in mine.

 

[yomero]

.
We had better sure hope/pray that never occurs!
It becomes a crime and creates victims when the illegals intrude on social services.
If they don't access the various social services... food, medicine, shelter, and provide these things legally to themselves, then there is no impact on society.
Otherwise, it's taking what hasn't been earned.

Pay taxes, for the most part.
If you're illegal, you can't pay taxes. You'll be found out. Of course, some natural-born citizens also dodge their taxes, but no one thinks that because they're natural-born, it's okay that they do so. Americans don't much care for tax-dodgers.

Illegal immigrants can pay taxes using a TIN number. Their motivation is the belief that paying to the IRS will aid them in gaining a legal status. It is demanding a refund which they could be entitled to that they avoid, to prevent drawing attention.

.
Mums and Daddums pay taxes?

Illegal immigrants do pay taxes. Their contribution is larger than the benefits they receive. I thought that had been established in my post and the links there. Here it is again.

It is evident from your post that this is an emotional issue for you. But you must strive to think about this rationally to avoid arriving at a mistaken and unfair conclusion.

It is a misjudgement to believe that illegal workers don't pay taxes, they do. Their contribution is larger than the benefits they can collect. Sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes are hard to avoid. Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes are automatically withheld from salaried workers' paychecks. Many self-employed illegal workers file personal income tax in the belief that complying with the IRS will help them gain legal status. To avoid drawing attention to themselves, illegal workers will not demand any refunds that they could be entitled to.

The Social Security Administration estimates that taxes paid by illegal workers contribute to the solvency of SS and Medicare. The SSA receives around $9 billion a year from such workers. Seldom is it claimed by the people who pay it, instead it covers retirement checks for legal workers. It is calculated that 10% of SSA surplus comes from payments by illegals. Besides emergency medical care and K-12 education, there are few services that illegals can get.

http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

So far, what I have posted has been information I quickly found by googling ''Illegal immigrants taxes''. There is another aspect to this matter which is only my personal opinion. Perhaps some will agree.

Beyond the question of the taxes paid by illegals and the incomplete benefits they receive in return, there is the matter of the contribution by their labor to the wealth of society and the consumer goods and services they get in return. Most of us have to work for an income. Our work increases the amount of goods available to society. With our income we obtain the goods and services we need and can afford. Some people (Wall-streeters?) plunder much more than they contribute. I contend that illegal workers give more to society than they receive.

From The Tax Foundation Organization I have copy- pasted the following:

''It is true that many undocumented immigrants pay payroll taxes (i.e. FICA and Medicare) using either an invalid Social Security number or a Tax Identification Number (TIN), and empirical evidence tends to show that a large fraction of the economic incidence of these taxes falls on workers ''

 

[I Ratant]

So the gist is those illegals that use incorrect IDs can pay into SS, without receiving any benefits.
OK, that's their problem, due to their illegal status.
They must make an effort to fix that, to enjoy the benefits.