I'm part Mexican!

[WildCat]

Mexico had quite a bit of immigration from Europe throughout its history, mostly from Spain but also from Italy, Germany and Ireland. According to Wikipedia, up to 17 percent of the population of Mexico is Caucasian:

It's actually over 90% Caucasian. Most Hispanics are Caucasian.

Of course, it depends on who's defining it.

 

[Cain]

****in' Mexicans. Pretty soon they're going to swarm these forums, make'em espanol only.

Actually, that does remind me of Orkut, a social networking site that wanted to compete with Facebook and Myspace. All these Brazilians started joining and, as you know, they write in this weird Mexican, and most of the boards became unusable by me -- a real American (since I only speaka the one language).

The problem with immigration, especially high levels of illegal immigration, is that it undermines a social safety net. People are inherently clannish/tribal and so when they see "their" dollars going to some outside group, it breeds resentment like Mexicans breed --. It's also fair to say illegal immigration depresses wages. On the other hand, I feel no special obligation to "Americans" -- especially since this country stole the south west. Moreover, illegal immigration is highly effective at fighting poverty. If Americans are a little poorer, and Mexicans are a lot richer, then that's a trade-off I'm willing to accept. I also like seeing white conservatives bitch about global capitalism.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Yeah, I just want to know why it's such a burr under Pipeline's saddle.
He's the only one really stopping him from using any word. Blaming other people for his own choices....I dunno, man....

Way to make a strawman, straw fleet and run a straw indy 500

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

My class once had a discussion on Affirmative Action. Everyone seemed to think that the only way to qualify their argument was by saying they were part black/Asian/Mexican/Native American/etc.

Heh, on the news whenever there is a debate related to race, for some reason the Republican and Democratic representatives suddenly become very tan...

 

[Mycroft]

You're asking for logic from a racist.

Touche.

"Some of my best friends are..."

Another time I argued with a revisionist who insisted Mark Webber of the IHR couldn't be racist because he once taught at an African school where the students were presumably majority black. I pointed out that even racists need jobs, and his long-term association with the white supremacist National Alliance was probably more indicative of his feelings towards non-whites.

 

[fuelair]

Bloody well said! I truly hadn't considered it that way, I'm ashamed to admit.

Sling is quite good at this (and many other ) topics. That's why it is a damned shame she isn't a teacher (well, other reasons too, but...).

 

[Skeptic]

NO! I do not want to buy a tamale! ...
NO! I do not need another taco truck parked outside my home! ...
NO! I do not need another burrito joint opening up in the local strip mall ...

You seem upset. Calm down, I'll take you to dinner. I know this great Mexican restau...

oh wait.

Seriously, with all honesty, yes, I see your point. I don't think you're being a racist but merely seriously annoyed. But this doesn't mean your claims are necessarily accurate.

 

[yomero]

They do suck the social services dry.

Business staffed to the hilt with under the table non tax paying payrolls.

People just like you that love the Mexican work force that illegally saves your company tons of money, while at the same time screws the state and country that made your company possible to begin with.

I am an American. I have to compete in the job market with Mexicans who work for less but make more because they don't pay taxes.
Taxes needed to keep the state and Federal governments going.

Immigration is at least half the reason why the Federal government is now shutting down. Also half the reason social security is destroyed.

It is evident from your post that this is an emotional issue for you. But you must strive to think about this rationally to avoid arriving at a mistaken and unfair conclusion.

It is a misjudgement to believe that illegal workers don't pay taxes, they do. Their contribution is larger than the benefits they can collect. Sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes are hard to avoid. Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes are automatically withheld from salaried workers' paychecks. Many self-employed illegal workers file personal income tax in the belief that complying with the IRS will help them gain legal status. To avoid drawing attention to themselves, illegal workers will not demand any refunds that they could be entitled to.

The Social Security Administration estimates that taxes paid by illegal workers contribute to the solvency of SS and Medicare. The SSA receives around $9 billion a year from such workers. Seldom is it claimed by the people who pay it, instead it covers retirement checks for legal workers. It is calculated that 10% of SSA surplus comes from payments by illegals. Besides emergency medical care and K-12 education, there are few services that illegals can get.

http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

So far, what I have posted has been information I quickly found by googling ''Illegal immigrants taxes''. There is another aspect to this matter which is only my personal opinion. Perhaps some will agree.

Beyond the question of the taxes paid by illegals and the incomplete benefits they receive in return, there is the matter of the contribution by their labor to the wealth of society and the consumer goods and services they get in return. Most of us have to work for an income. Our work increases the amount of goods available to society. With our income we obtain the goods and services we need and can afford. Some people (Wall-streeters?) plunder much more than they contribute. I contend that illegal workers give more to society than they receive.

 

[Amapola]

That's a great post and good points, Yomero. I think your last point is true. And if it were only about the amount of taxes, why not go after big corporations who use all sorts of shenanigans to avoid paying taxes? I bet Exon would end up paying lots more into the system than an illegal alien working a construction job.

Anyone who is truly upset about illegal immigrants from Mexico should be working hard to come up with ways to make Mexico an economically successful country. After all, we don't sit around complaining about illegal Canadians.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Anyone who is truly upset about illegal immigrants from Mexico should be working hard to come up with ways to make Mexico an economically successful country. After all, we don't sit around complaining about illegal Canadians.

Anyone who worries about rape should be trying hard to find willing chicks for the rapists to nail

oh wait, was that supposed to make sense?

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

It's actually over 90% Caucasian. Most Hispanics are Caucasian.

Of course, it depends on who's defining it.

Well, point being, you don't have to be chocolate colored to be Mexican.

So the, ehem, young lady Mycroft met might have been part Latina.

 

[Amapola]

@pipelineaudio: I'm so sorry that my point has eluded you. Canada is a great and successful country where most can make a good living and so it's citizens are not forced to go elsewhere to try and make ends meet or support their families. This can not be said for Mexico, alas, the poor there are very poor and can be driven by desperation to attempt to cross the border, whether legally or illegally, because life is better in the USA. Now, if life were really good in Mexico, there would be no need to leave, and in fact I think many of these people don't really wish to leave their family behind. They are very family oriented in their culture.

 

[yomero]

Anyone who is truly upset about illegal immigrants from Mexico should be working hard to come up with ways to make Mexico an economically successful country. After all, we don't sit around complaining about illegal Canadians.

Anyone who worries about rape should be trying hard to find willing chicks for the rapists to nail

oh wait, was that supposed to make sense?

Pipeline, I don't think your analogy works. Amapola does not seem to be advocating that the USA willingly accept illegal immigrants. Rather, she proposes a way to diminish immigration: Improve economic conditions in Mexico. I agree with that part of her statement. But I don't think that Americans should carry the responsibility to achieve that. We, the Mexican people, have that duty.

ETA:I should learn to type faster. I see that Amapola already replied to Pipeline's post.

 

[slingblade]

I know where you're coming from but this sentiment comes off to me as very fantastical. The real world is different in practice then on paper. On paper it may sound good to say what you want when ever and where ever but in practice....not so much.

That's cool, but this it isn't a "sentiment." It's a simple fact: our choices carry consequences. We decide if we'll accept those consequences or not. To say that other people have decided it for us by providing those consequences puts the responsibility for our choice on them, not on us.

Is that where it belongs?

I don't generally use the word in question, the "n-word," for my own reasons. I am making that choice. No one is making it for me, and no one can allow me or not allow me to use the word. If I were to maintain that, I would be stating clearly that I willingly let others manipulate me, and all I know to do about it is feebly object on an internet forum.

Now, if I do choose to use it, I am also choosing to accept any repercussions for it. I can't expect to use it and not face objections, since I know it's considered an objectionable word.

And that's what's really being said by some who holler about "not being allowed" to use it: "I not only want to be able to say it, but to say it without facing any penalty or censure." Um, well, no. That's not part of the deal, sorry. It's a crap little word, with a ton of negative baggage, and you can't use it without toting some of that baggage along. Even the people who do use it are aware of that.

I wouldn't condone anyone walk up to a girl and call her a female dog because some woman jokingly call each other that.

Again, though, that's not what I'm addressing. I'm talking about who chooses for you what you can say and what you can't? And I'm making the argument that even in the face of possible repercussions, even in the face of an outright threat of harm, it is still you who makes this choice.

This relates to the OP in a direct way: the sentiment, "it's okay, I can speak poorly of them, because I'm one of them," is an attempt to defer the consequences of objectionable opinions by "in-grouping." I'd call it fallacious, though I'm not really sure of the type.

But her reasoning is likely something to the effect that criticism of a group should come only from within the group, because only the members of the group really understand the dynamics. Outsiders do not and cannot understand, and so their criticism is often perceived as bigoted or racist, by that very virtue.

I do feel what the girl in the OP said was a fallacy. I just don't know how to articulate my reasons.

 

[pipelineaudio]

@pipelineaudio: I'm so sorry that my point has eluded you. Canada is a great and successful country where most can make a good living and so it's citizens are not forced to go elsewhere to try and make ends meet or support their families. This can not be said for Mexico, alas, the poor there are very poor and can be driven by desperation to attempt to cross the border, whether legally or illegally, because life is better in the USA. Now, if life were really good in Mexico, there would be no need to leave, and in fact I think many of these people don't really wish to leave their family behind. They are very family oriented in their culture.

I understand that part of the point, I just wish to make an objection, that in no way should the victim of a crime be subject to a crime just because they can't find a solution that is acceptable to the criminal. I understand that Mexico is a mess, all of our families have strong Mexican tie. In the border states its hard to escape from. However, this does not excuse the criminals who won't take their turn in line the same as all the honest immigrants do. I'd like all the money in your bank account, but I dont think there's a moral imperative for you to give it to me

 

[pipelineaudio]

Pipeline, I don't think your analogy works. Amapola does not seem to be advocating that the USA willingly accept illegal immigrants. Rather, she proposes a way to diminish immigration: Improve economic conditions in Mexico. I agree with that part of her statement. But I don't think that Americans should carry the responsibility to achieve that. We, the Mexican people, have that duty.

I see what you did there

 

[quixotecoyote]

I see what you did there

That's just your knee-jerk acting up. I know what you think you saw, and that ain't it.

 

[pipelineaudio]

That's just your knee-jerk acting up. I know what you think you saw, and that ain't it.

If it didn't happen every single time illegal immigration is mentioned on this forum, I'd have an easier time believing you

 

[quixotecoyote]

If it didn't happen every single time illegal immigration is mentioned on this forum, I'd have an easier time believing you

When someone says they don't want illegal immigration, and propose reducing the impetus for immigration in general as a response, there's nothing shady or bait-and-switch about it.

 

[yomero]

Pipeline, I don't think your analogy works. Amapola does not seem to be advocating that the USA willingly accept illegal immigrants . Rather, she proposes a way to diminish immigration: Improve economic conditions in Mexico. I agree with that part of her statement. But I don't think that Americans should carry the responsibility to achieve that. We, the Mexican people, have that duty.

​

Pipeline emphasized in red those words in my post.

I see what you did there

What are you seeing? There is no secret message in my post, no hidden code.