I'm all for gun control

[Lonewulf]

Which is it? You live in Philadelphia or in the sticks.

I call troll.

 

[Drudgewire]

I would be willing to see a requirement for training before such things as a concealed carry permit.

You take a safety course, you pass a written test to show you're knowledgeable about the laws and the responsibilities, you prove you're capable with a weapon up to 15 yards, and you not only have to pass a criminal background check, you have to explain in writing every single legal situation you've ever been in including traffic tickets.

And in 2 1/2 years, I'll have to pay another $50 to renew it.

I love these threads.

 

[Crowlogic]

Which is it? You live in Philadelphia or in the sticks.

I live in the sticks the very same sticks that Barrack Obama made some very accurate observations concerning guns and religion during the campaign.

When I said "we" I meant because of our connection with Philadelphia as part of the commonwealth of PA. Not only that but I don't have to travel more than about 5 miles to be in Klan country. Yessir the simple country ain't what it's cracked up to be. I can't wait to get the hell outta here!

 

[Crowlogic]

So now you're honestly going to stick with your prejudicial belief that "educated people won't buy guns, uneducated people love them". Sounds a lot like Danish Dynamite calling women that have firearms "ignorant".

I'm not a professional, but I'm looking into being an author. I'm currently studying German at the Max Weber Haus under the Heidelberg University. I'm currently looking into attending the University of Texas at San Antonio and pursue a degree in history, with possibly a minor in astronomy, to aid in my writing. I have an interest in physics and science, albeit more as a cheerleader than as anything else. I'm an atheist. I'm not a "cowboy"; living in Texas for a year doesn't make you qualify. I'm not sure if this makes me qualify in your black-and-white (or perhaps hillbilly gun lubber-educated gun hater) world view, but there it is.

I'm interested in firearms. I've fired firearms before as target practice, and it was pretty fun. I've known other intelligent people, one a physics instructor, that have also had fun at the range (I didn't ask him as to whether there should be strict gun control, but somehow I doubt it). I don't necessarily oppose certain kinds of gun control, but only those that attempt to ensure that they don't end up in the hands of criminals (background checks, etc.), although I would be willing to see a requirement for training before such things as a concealed carry permit. I see regulations that attempt to keep firearms out of the hands of average citizens to be an idea that's rather short-sighted, and attempts to simplify the issue.

And I notice you conveniently ignore the Pink Pistols; but I'm sure that they're just a bunch of uneducated hillbilly fundamentalist Christian homosexuals, I suppose.


I'm beginning to wonder if your intent in this thread is to troll.

No troll. I'm in favor of some types of firearms. I am not in favor of concealable firearms. I'm very much not in favor of the dummbed down America I see all around me. However if you're much under age 45 you might not know any better. Or maybe people have always been this stupid.

 

[Lonewulf]

No troll.

Somehow, I doubt it, but I'll refrain from judgment (something you should learn to do, perhaps).

I'm in favor of some types of firearms.

Right, the 12 gauge "coon huntin'" gun. Got it.

I am not in favor of concealable firearms.

I am.

I'm very much not in favor of the dummbed down America I see all around me.

It's ironic that you spelled "dumbed" with two m's. Although your general grasp of spelling and grammar could use some work as well. (Before people start attempting to play "I can go grammar nazi too!", count how many errors I make per post and compare to Crowlogic).

Personally, I'm very much not in favor of the hateful, spiteful, two-way thinking that exists all over American society (and all over the world in general). You are just another agent of such thinking.

However if you're much under age 45 you might not know any better.

Ageism at its finest. If you can't judge by stance on an issue, you judge by age alone. Figures.

Or maybe people have always been this stupid.

Yes, because people that don't agree with you are "stupid".

 

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

And what is the level of gun violence in Canada these days? Do you feel safe walking down the street? I can assure you in Phildelphia PA USA you better be prepared to duck. I think we're the gun death capital of the country right now.

In a .PDF file, "Homicide in Canada, 2006 (PDF Version, 202 kb)"

Figure 1 (page 2) shows that, "Homicides peaked in mid-1970s." There was a slight upwards bump after the '95 gun ban, but in general, the rate followed the same general downward slope established since the peak.

Figure 2 (page 3) shows a comparison of percentages of homicides by weapon. Shootings have a slight downtrend from 40% since the start of the chart in 1976, but have remained mostly unchanged since 1993. 'Stabbings', however, show a rise in percentage, with beatings remaining unchanged and 'Other" declining.

Figure 3 (page 4) shows a steady, if somewhat spiky, decline in the incidence of all firearm murders other than handgun murders, which has remained pretty much constant or a slight increase. Handguns and rifle/shotgun homicides show a significant decrease in 2006. There is, however, no obvious response to the '95 ban.

All in all, the homicide rate in Canada have fluttered, between 2 and 3 per 100,000 since 1976, so, yeah - their homicide rate is low, but it seems like it's always been low.

...and I have to ask: How many of those gun deaths in Philly are being committed by persons who would care, in the slightest, about a gun ban? How many of those committing gun homicides are already under a, "no firearms allowed," constraint?

 

[RandFan]

Have you spent any time in Philadelphia lately?

Did you bother to even follow my link? I'm sorry but the trend for homicide is down. Your anecdotal data notwithstanding. You can flail your hands about all you like but the facts are not with you.

The Murder rate is going up up up and its guns guns guns that are doing the kill kill kill.

Sounds like an empirical claim to me. Evidence?

Laughably tragic proportions is what I said in the post you quoted.

BFD. Compared to many other industrialized nations ALL of our rates of homicides are high. RELATIVELY. That includes stabbings and strangling. The problem is not the nice tied in a bow oversimplification you want it to be. And, the fact remains, homicide rates are trending down in America, your anecdotes and your assertions are not facts.

 

[Drewbot]

I had for neighbors professional people, doctors, teachers, engineers, writers etc. Not one of them owned a gun or were interested in firearms. Why do you suppose that educated professional people seem to lack interest in guns? I live in the sticks now and them hicks love thier guns and thier bibles.

Wow. I wonder if they make it a point to tell neighbors that they have guns. Grandpa always told me, 'never tell anyone you have a gun in the house'.

I wonder if that is pretty standard advice. In which case your intimate knowledge of the contents of your neighbors' nightstand is probably incorrect.

 

[Smiledriver]

As far as gun violence in Canada I can't give a definitive answer however I live in Calgary, a city of about 1,000,000 people and there are quite alot of shootings. Gang violence is pretty bad here too in comparison to other Canadian cities. The guns used are not legally attained, nor are they registered.

Meanwhile I don't have so much as a traffic ticket on my record and I own a gun and have to keep it locked at a range. If I want to use it w/o a range officer present I have to take a proficiency test, if I want to take it home I have to apply for a permit to transport it (I can't take it where I please, just home and back to a range.) The gov't tells me how I must store it in my own home, if I am caught with it improperly stored I go to jail, there isn't even clear protections for gun owner doing routine matience on restricted firearms. One of my fellow citizens is fighting for his freedom right now for having a handle of a firearm on a work table in his own home. No barrel, no trigger assembly let alone ammo the police saw a part for a gun and arrested him.

I don't see how these laws protect me from anything, if anything they legislate me out of my right to self-defense and give the state the means to keep me unarmed and possibly locked up.

Well at least the gun registry (which has about a 10% compliance rate) cost us billions of dollars. Gee Whiz

 

[Crowlogic]

Somehow, I doubt it, but I'll refrain from judgment (something you should learn to do, perhaps).

Right, the 12 gauge "coon huntin'" gun. Got it.


I am.

It's ironic that you spelled "dumbed" with two m's. Although your general grasp of spelling and grammar could use some work as well. (Before people start attempting to play "I can go grammar nazi too!", count how many errors I make per post and compare to Crowlogic).

Personally, I'm very much not in favor of the hateful, spiteful, two-way thinking that exists all over American society (and all over the world in general). You are just another agent of such thinking.

Ageism at its finest. If you can't judge by stance on an issue, you judge by age alone. Figures.


Yes, because people that don't agree with you are "stupid".

I trust my judgment of what stupid is better than I trust yours. But by all means be as much as a grammar nazi as much as you want. A nazi is a nazi.

 

[Crowlogic]

Did you bother to even follow my link? I'm sorry but the trend for homicide is down. Your anecdotal data notwithstanding. You can flail your hands about all you like but the facts are not with you.

Sounds like an empirical claim to me. Evidence?

QUOTE]

If I didn't live somewhat near Philadelphia I would say you might have a point. However I'm treated to the local news and local papers that you out in SolCal aren't going to notice any more than I'll have a good detail news handle on LA. I hear Philadelhia Mayor Nutter constantly bemoaning the violence in his city, its real and its getting worse. Why don't you look at the shooting stats for Philadelphia in 07 & 08. They just burried yet another police officer.

 

[Crowlogic]

Wow. I wonder if they make it a point to tell neighbors that they have guns. Grandpa always told me, 'never tell anyone you have a gun in the house'.

I wonder if that is pretty standard advice. In which case your intimate knowledge of the contents of your neighbors' nightstand is probably incorrect.

And Grandpa told me guns are the tools of ignorance. But seriously Drew you're trying to second guess my observations and interactions with people, you've never met, over a decade and a half time span is abusrd.

 

[Drudgewire]

Crowlogic, clearly you're the most informed gun expert on the forums so I figure you're the one to ask:

Obviously when I carry (which I do everywhere) I sport more firepower, but since I'm trying to save money at the range I'm getting a .22 Friday. Should I go with...

The Walther P-22...

The Sig Mosquito, or...

The Smith & Wesson 22A.

Personally I'm leaning towards the Sig since I already have a couple of Smiths and like the notion of owning many different brands (Glock, S&W, FNH, Marlin and Mossberg representin' so far), and Walthers are just so common. But on the other hand, maybe so many people have Walthers because they're so reliable. Then again, after thousands of rounds I've never had a S&W misfire.

Please Crowlogic, you're my only hope.

 

[RandFan]

If I didn't live somewhat near Philadelphia I would say you might have a point.

No, the point still stands. There's a reason we call it anecdotal and there is a reason we require protocol when doing studies. It goes all the way back to the ancient greek philosophers. The scientific method and skepticism and critical thinking all tell us that your anecdotal observations don't mean squat especially when you take into account the facts.

A HISTORY OF VIOLENCE

In the decade of Darfur and Iraq, and shortly after the century of Stalin, Hitler, and Mao, the claim that violence has been diminishing may seem somewhere between hallucinatory and obscene. Yet recent studies that seek to quantify the historical ebb and flow of violence point to exactly that conclusion.

You are repeating the tired old mantra that turns out to be false.

 

[Lonewulf]

I trust my judgment of what stupid is better than I trust yours.

So, Crow, you're saying I'm stupid because I disagree with you?

But by all means be as much as a grammar nazi as much as you want. A nazi is a nazi.

What, you never heard of the term "grammar nazi"? You think they're real nazis? And you call me stupid?

I repeat: Your two-dimensional "I'm smart because I think what I think, you're dumb because you think what you think" is ridiculous, although all too common in an often-polarizing world. So is your "smart people don't have guns" BS. I've known plenty of intelligent people that have owned firearms; you want me to take your claim seriously, then back it up with some evidence and prove it. Until then, I'll take your "personal observations" with a gallon of salt.

You trust your judgment of what "stupid" is better than you trust mine? So do you think anyone who disagrees with you on any issue is stupid?

I'm beginning to think that this means you have very little to no friends, unless they share your bigotry. Sad.

 

[Lonewulf]

And Grandpa told me guns are the tools of ignorance.

He'd be wrong.

But I guess you're right. Those stupid uneducated homosexuals that want to protect themselves from gay bashing are all ignorant, stupid rednecks. Who the hell cares if someone beats to death a homosexual?

But seriously Drew you're trying to second guess my observations and interactions with people, you've never met, over a decade and a half time span is abusrd.

Another person that claims that his own personal observations outruns all other evidence, statistics, and reality.

Guess what, Crow? You're on a skeptic's forum. We run into this crap all the time in a numerous amount of issues. People claim they see ghosts. People claim that they see horoscopes always come true. People claim that they've "seen something", and that their own anecdotal observations trump all else. I've had one man tell me that, because he's older than me by 28 years, he knows better about issues as rape more (and thus, men can't be raped). What makes you think you're so special? What makes you think that we'll fall to our knees and admit that we're wrong because you make some pithy, insulting statements on a regular basis, and don't even work to support your claims?

You want to go toe to toe with people here, you need to learn stuff like studies, science, statistics, and a little something called Confirmation Bias.

Until you do, your arguments will be ineffective in convincing anyone else besides yourself. And if that's all you're interested in convincing, may I recommend you take such comments to your mirror and spare us?

 

[Drudgewire]

What, you never heard of the term "grammar nazi"? You think they're real nazis? And you call me stupid?

And there's a world of difference between being an annoying grammar nazi and pointing out the hilarious irony of misspelling "dumb."

 

[Lonewulf]

And there's a world of difference between being an annoying grammar nazi and pointing out the hilarious irony of misspelling "dumb." [qimg]http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/eng101.gif[/qimg]

Let's see if Crowlogic is "intellectually superior" enough to us to know of this Tolstoy quote:

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleages, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."

 

[Yjacket]

Let's see if Crowlogic is "intellectually superior" enough to us to know of this Tolstoy quote:

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleages, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."

How about a shorthand version for those of us who have university level degrees but must be uneducated because we have an interest in firearms and recreational shooting. It goes something like --

My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts.

 

[Crowlogic]

So, Crow, you're saying I'm stupid because I disagree with you?



What, you never heard of the term "grammar nazi"? You think they're real nazis? And you call me stupid?

I repeat: Your two-dimensional "I'm smart because I think what I think, you're dumb because you think what you think" is ridiculous, although all too common in an often-polarizing world. So is your "smart people don't have guns" BS. I've known plenty of intelligent people that have owned firearms; you want me to take your claim seriously, then back it up with some evidence and prove it. Until then, I'll take your "personal observations" with a gallon of salt.

You trust your judgment of what "stupid" is better than you trust mine? So do you think anyone who disagrees with you on any issue is stupid?

I'm beginning to think that this means you have very little to no friends, unless they share your bigotry. Sad.

I'm saying that shoes that fit have a way of being worn.