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Illinois Teacher Pensions

Kestrel said:
Right wingers have a dual standard for contractual obligations. Golden parachutes for CEOs and huge bonus payment obligations for investment bankers are unbreakable vows. Contracts made with mere working class people can be discarded at will.
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The reason the GOP is having a hard time recently is that the working class people who used to vote for them without question have started to notice this.
 
stevea said:
Not sure why you think your expenses will be so much lower. Advisers used to say that - but it's not necessarily true. Work togs and commutes aren't that expensive. Run the actual numbers - don't trust rules of thumb.
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My current expenses include 100% of the tuition/books/school fees and 1/2 the rent for 3 kids in college. That will have completely disappeared before I retire, and represents almost $40k a year in cost avoidance. Assuming our 401k's simply keep up with inflation, combined they will allow us to pay off our mortgage when we retire. The principle and interest portion of our mortgage is about 22K a year. I am not expecting to gain disposable income from work related expenses, as I will almost certainly more than account for these in other "boredom avoidance" expenses when I retire. Both my pensions, her pension, and both SS incomes are pegged to inflation. I am being quite conservative in estimating that 70% of our current income will be sufficient to maintain our current standard of living during retirement.
 
BenBurch said:
Nothing coerced about the promise; Nobody had to sign those contracts.

People who make promises they regret ALWAYS have an excuse. It was coerced. I can't afford it. I don't feel like paying it. Teachers aren't worth it. It was just an affair.

But people who make promises they will not keep are not honorable people. They are not trustworthy people.

They are not people who deserve a chance to make and break more promises.
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Bull.

The taxpayer should not continue to get robbed and other more essential services should not be cut to pay for a very bad deal bought by unions from corrupt politicians. Just like a liberal to sacrifice the good of the people to the greedy wants of a special interest group. Wait..... I actually thought that was more the mark of a conservative.

The state can not afford the pensions as they currently are structured without levying an overly burdensome tax on the citizens AND ending essential services. It is unconsionable to argue for such a thing.
 
Kestrel said:
Right wingers have a dual standard for contractual obligations. Golden parachutes for CEOs and huge bonus payment obligations for investment bankers are unbreakable vows. Contracts made with mere working class people can be discarded at will.
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Left wingers have a dual standard for special interest groups. Extortion in favor of union thugs and at the cost to real citizens is good.*





*hey, as long as we are painting with a push broom...........
 
I sign a bad contract for, say, a car, and then decide I cannot pay for it after a couple years. Sure the used car guy who sold me a car with 33% financing was corrupt. Yes, I really needed the car at the time. Yes, paying for this car is keeping me from paying for other things I need.

So, I can just stop paying?
 
BenBurch said:
I sign a bad contract for, say, a car, and then decide I cannot pay for it after a couple years. Sure the used car guy who sold me a car with 33% financing was corrupt. Yes, I really needed the car at the time. Yes, paying for this car is keeping me from paying for other things I need.

So, I can just stop paying?
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Really, really bad analogy.

Try this one:

You commit your neighbor to pay 10 years from now for a car you intend to drive today. You choose a car dealer that will jack up the price and split a portion of the graft with you. Ten years later, when the car note is due, your neighbor must choose between paying for the car (something he is not legally bound to do, but you insist he is honor bound to do) or buying food for his family. You insist that the right thing to do is pay for the car and let his family starve - or steal from your other neighbors if he wants to both pay for the car and feed his family.

Now, that analogy is much closer to the actual circumstances.
 
While I don't like how we got here, now that we HAVE allowed that to occur, we need to pay our bills.

It is unethical not to.

I've believed this since I was a child, and I'm not about to change my position now.

Bush the Lesser ran up a $3000 bill for each man, woman, and child in these 50 States with two wars neither one of which was necessary. (We saw the exact amount of response that was necessary back in Spring when OBL was done in.) But I don't hear people saying we should repudiate those debts, do I? And I'm not going to, am I?

Why is it OK when the fraud is in the form of wars that costs thousands of American lives and caused the spilling of well over 10,000 gallons of American blood?

How is that different from promising a pension to the professionals we hired to educate our children such that it is a debt we cannot repudiate, but the debt to the teachers is to be casually tossed in the rubbish tip?
 
BenBurch said:
While I don't like how we got here, now that we HAVE allowed that to occur, we need to pay our bills.

It is unethical not to.

I've believed this since I was a child, and I'm not about to change my position now.

Bush the Lesser ran up a $3000 bill for each man, woman, and child in these 50 States with two wars neither one of which was necessary. (We saw the exact amount of response that was necessary back in Spring when OBL was done in.) But I don't hear people saying we should repudiate those debts, do I? And I'm not going to, am I?

Why is it OK when the fraud is in the form of wars that costs thousands of American lives and caused the spilling of well over 10,000 gallons of American blood?

How is that different from promising a pension to the professionals we hired to educate our children such that it is a debt we cannot repudiate, but the debt to the teachers is to be casually tossed in the rubbish tip?
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Jeeze, stop with the heartstring tugs, will ya?

The State can not afford the pensions, and the pension agreements were not entered with the best interests of the taxpayer in mind.

You are proposing that the state adopt significant tax increases on the citizens that can ill afford it AND that the state stop performing essential services simply to pay a bad debt. That is an immoral proposal.
 
Kestrel said:
Right wingers have a dual standard for contractual obligations. Golden parachutes for CEOs and huge bonus payment obligations for investment bankers are unbreakable vows. Contracts made with mere working class people can be discarded at will.
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What the hell does Illinois being broke have to do with golden parachutes for CEOs?

Illinois is broke. Its pensions are underfunded by over $80 billion. We've borrowed money and raised taxes solely to keep the pensions afloat, and still they sink. They are unsustainable. Too much was promised, too little is being paid into the system.

The state is years behind in paying its bills to some vendors, other vendors have gone out of business waiting to get paid by the state. This includes hospitals and nursing homes. The sick and elderly are literally being kicked out of hospitals and nursing homes, and state vendors are going unpaid for work performed. We have the worst credit rating of any state, as well as one of the worst business environments. Pensions already account for 17% of the state budget. We can't borrow and tax our way out of this mess.

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BenBurch said:
You elected every one of those people because you are a citizen.

It is on YOU to keep the promise.
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He can always break that promise with his feet. Indeed, given the numbers I have seen, he would be foolish not to move.
 
Kestrel said:
Right wingers have a dual standard for contractual obligations. Golden parachutes for CEOs and huge bonus payment obligations for investment bankers are unbreakable vows. Contracts made with mere working class people can be discarded at will.
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That's the private sector. The state pensions are based on money they don't have.
 
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Having worked for county government long enough to qualify for a small pension when I'm older, I understand the feeling that government should follow through with its promises. However, if my state were $80 billion in the hole, I certainly wouldn't expect to receive the full amount.
 
sarge said:
With even a very modest rate of return over a 45 year working career, a comfortable retirement is achieveable with significantly less than 30% contributions. At least, it is in the States. Obviously, I know next to nothing about your systems and rules.

That being said, this conversation has been a bit of an eye opener. Thanks for the exchange.
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The rules are the same but the expectation of a comfortable retirement based on 10-15% of salary contribution was based on 7-9% compounded investment return and 2-3% inflation. Unfortunately, over the last 15 years this kind of investment return has been almost impossible to achieve (I know some funds have provided that kind of return - most have provided returns under the rate of inflation). Certainly in my case the total value of my funds is slightly less than the amount I've paid in over the last 20 years. This is due to

  • Poor investment returns on the funds selected (typcally money market and income and growth finds)
  • Fees, a management fee of 1%+ is not unusual, trading fees of up to 5% are also common

We have a completely different paradigm now. You have to select well and be lucky to find investments that keep pace with inflation, never mind provide positive rates of return.

If young people expect to invest 10-15% of salary for 45 years and retire comfortably then they'll have a nasty surprise.
 
BenBurch said:
I sign a bad contract for, say, a car, and then decide I cannot pay for it after a couple years. Sure the used car guy who sold me a car with 33% financing was corrupt. Yes, I really needed the car at the time. Yes, paying for this car is keeping me from paying for other things I need.

So, I can just stop paying?
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Sure you can. And when taken to court for breach on contract, the contract will be dissolved due to usury. Unfair, impossible to enforce contracts are renegotiated all the time. That's what needs to happen here.
 
BenBurch said:
What a ********** up version of what happens. You are smarter than that.

You negotiate the contract with the UNION.

See, contracts in America are not unilateral things.
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You don't renegotiate the usurious contract with the auto seller. It goes through court, or in this case court/legislature.
 
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