Illinois Abolishes the Death Penalty

[BenBurch]

Which colony of which country invented these things?

Not so much invented as put together in a coherent whole. English Common Law had part of it, but the roots of the ideas were from all over the world, including from the unwritten Constitution of the five tribes in the Iroquois League.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

In any case, I think Gov. Quinn made the right decision here.

For all his faults, I have to give props to former governor (now in jail) George Ryan for the initial moratorium on this issue.

 

[sarge]

Vengence is a fine motive for killing someone, and I'm okay with the goverment acting on my behalf. As soon as it is possible to establish with absolute certainty that a criminal is guilty of a capital crime, take them out back and kill them. Do it quickly and publically. Hell, sell tickets and TV time.

Until we can do so with absolute certainty that not one innocent person will ever be executed, then I do not desire the goverment to practice executions. From a budget standpoint, life sentences are cheaper than rapidly consumated executions.

Real hard time for real life sentences wouldn't bother me either. There is no logical reason for providing even a modicum of entertainment for lifers. Clothes, showers, food, and a cage. No extrodinary, life prolonging health care.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

agreed.

Prisoners should be made to have taxpayer funded housing, entertainment and food provided for them for the rest of their lives.

*facepalm*

Well, since quite a few have been exonerated by later evidence, I have no problem with that.

 

[I Am The Scum]

Well, since quite a few have been exonerated by later evidence, I have no problem with that.

You silly liberals, always thinking there should be fairness in the criminal justice system.

 

[pgwenthold]

For all his faults, I have to give props to former governor (now in jail) George Ryan for the initial moratorium on this issue.

This is what I was going to say. This all started when he commuted the sentences of everyone on death row.

Bold move.

 

[Aoidoi]

Given the percentage of former governors convicted of felonies, and the general air of criminality amongst our politicians, I have to say I'm in favor of this. The government is far too tainted with corruption to feel confident in applying the death penalty fairly, and it's not the sort of issue where there can be doubt.

Though if Stroger was eligible, it would be tempting...

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Then some upstarts in a colony got the idea that Justice ought to involve proportional punishment and an independent judiciary and that prisoners are innocent until proven guilty and that everybody has inalienable rights.

Which colony of which country invented these things?

Not so much invented as put together in a coherent whole. English Common Law had part of it, but the roots of the ideas were from all over the world, including from the unwritten Constitution of the five tribes in the Iroquois League.

Um.. that didn't answer the question. I don't know which colony was the first country in the world to assemble those four items into their judicial system, I was hoping you'd tell me.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Prisoners should be made to have taxpayer funded housing, entertainment and food provided for them for the rest of their lives.

As your statement applies to the topic of this thread, the death penalty is more expensive to the state than life in prison with no chance of release.

 

[Darat]

Um.. that didn't answer the question. I don't know which colony was the first country in the world to assemble those four items into their judicial system, I was hoping you'd tell me.

I know (from reading those books that don't take batteries - aren't they weird?) that the USA was considered the most progressive penal system towards the end of the 19th century.

Good overview of UK progress: http://www.howardleague.org/history-of-prison-system/

 

[dudalb]

Not so much invented as put together in a coherent whole. English Common Law had part of it, but the roots of the ideas were from all over the world, including from the unwritten Constitution of the five tribes in the Iroquois League.

I have to disagree, the roots of the Constitution was in English Common law and some of the theories of the philsophers of the Enlightenment. The evidence that the Iroquois league Constitution has any influence on the creators of the constitution is very thin. Another well meaning attempt at Multi Culturalism that just does not stand up when you look at the evidence.

 

[eeyore1954]

Sure does, I believe in punishment over revenge

PErsonally I am against the death penalty but for most people I know who agree with it revenge is not the motive.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Though if Stroger was eligible, it would be tempting...

Todd's not a criminal, he's just stupid.

 

[Lowpro]

Just curious, what can we say on the issue if we ignore the origins of the death penalty? Screw old English law, let's scrutinize the death penalty under the current zeitgeist for a second to debate it.

Personally, I've had a childhood friend raped and murdered with her body left in the woods. The man responsible was caught and convicted and sent to Death Row. I agree, and everyone who knows him including his family are in agreement that he should die, and many of them are frustrated that it takes so long for the execution to occur.

I also know that not every judgment is perfect, that the system did not start out with a 100% success rate. I think that as we improve our current system of forensic analysis and understanding we can feel more comfortable in sending the proper person onto death row.

I also think they should die in the fastest possible time after judgment.

I also think all those who are locked up and NOT on death row, just people who committed crime(s) should still be offered an education, food, and the like just like I'd offer any human being. I also think they should work for the amenities however not like slave labor. Even a prisoner can learn to index a file, write a dissertation. Don't waste resources.

 

[I Am The Scum]

I agree, and everyone who knows him including his family are in agreement that he should die...

Why? Is this a rational conclusion that you have formed, or is this just something that "feels right?"

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Personally, I've had a childhood friend raped and murdered with her body left in the woods. The man responsible was caught and convicted and sent to Death Row. I agree, and everyone who knows him including his family are in agreement that he should die, and many of them are frustrated that it takes so long for the execution to occur.

And this is exactly why we don't let victims and their families decide on appropriate sentences for convicted criminals. We don't want justice to be colored by emotions and passions. We want it to be dispassionate and just--not vengeful.

Killing this rapist/murderer will not bring the victim back or undo the harm done to the family and friends of the victim. (I don't think there's a consensus among mental health professionals that passing out the death sentence gives any meaningful "closure" to victims/survivors.)

So back to the real issues:

I don't think there is any evidence that the death penalty deters crime (people committing the heinous crimes that would qualify for capital punishment don't consider that they could be caught).

Using the death penalty to coerce confessions or other information isn't ethical (and probably violates the Convention Against Torture), though this seems to be the strongest argument in favor of it.

As Quinn said, a perfect system (one that precludes the possibility of any mistakes or biased application) is impossible.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I also think they should die in the fastest possible time after judgment.

So if you had your way, death row inmates who have been exonerated would be dead. If we imprison the wrong person, we can release him with apologies (and maybe even some financial compensation). We can't undo death, so you've got to get it 100% right, with absolutely no chance of error or biased application.

 

[Lowpro]

So if you had your way, death row inmates who have been exonerated would be dead. If we imprison the wrong person, we can release him with apologies (and maybe even some financial compensation). We can't undo death, so you've got to get it 100% right, with absolutely no chance of error or biased application.

Forgive me, I left my hindsight glasses at home, but I think you forgot to even wear yours:

I also know that not every judgment is perfect, that the system did not start out with a 100% success rate. I think that as we improve our current system of forensic analysis and understanding we can feel more comfortable in sending the proper person onto death row.

Why? Is this a rational conclusion that you have formed, or is this just something that "feels right?"

Not just feeling. Again he raped and murdered my friend. He continually tortured and stalked the mother of her friend (a friend of the family) who had left him weeks earlier and moved to another apartment which location he was asked not to go near. When he was caught, he at first denied anything to do with her disappearance, but later confessed to knowing the location of the body and not her murder. Forensic evidence showed otherwise.

The fact he still lives is nonsensical. He murdered a person, it is proven with the same forensic evidence we used to EXONERATE past deathrow inmates of crimes they didn't commit (Thereby matching the standard defined by JoeTheJuggler if he wants to argue it) A death penalty verdict was reached quickly. My rationality tells me there's no need for him to breath anymore, it's not the same "feeling" I get from bloodlust which you want me to say IATS

 

[Lowpro]

And this is exactly why we don't let victims and their families decide on appropriate sentences for convicted criminals. We don't want justice to be colored by emotions and passions. We want it to be dispassionate and just--not vengeful.

Killing this rapist/murderer will not bring the victim back or undo the harm done to the family and friends of the victim. (I don't think there's a consensus among mental health professionals that passing out the death sentence gives any meaningful "closure" to victims/survivors.)

So back to the real issues:

I don't think there is any evidence that the death penalty deters crime (people committing the heinous crimes that would qualify for capital punishment don't consider that they could be caught).

Using the death penalty to coerce confessions or other information isn't ethical (and probably violates the Convention Against Torture), though this seems to be the strongest argument in favor of it.

As Quinn said, a perfect system (one that precludes the possibility of any mistakes or biased application) is impossible.

Joe, I would NEVER argue that the death penalty deters crime, I know it doesn't. I also know it can be wrong. I don't care. People sometimes should die, not just for vengeance but because their living is a negative to the universe. I also don't think it's wrong to kill for vengeance, that's part of my personal belief that you get to "seek happiness" I feel that, if I were inclined to, I should kill pastor Fred Phelps because I dislike him enough to submit myself before a court system for his murder. The Death Penalty allows for us to do that, but that us being not just the affected victims, but a jury and proper attorneys.

But I also know the case I bring before you is not the general case, as you said, BEFORE when forensic evidence was limited we damn well got it wrong, innocent people died. Removing the death penalty will not bring them back, it will not make the system work any more perfectly, all it would do is prevent their earlier demise. What makes this so important then?

EDIT: I want to say, I want as little to nothing to do with anything deepatrax argues. I don't care to equate prison to federal funded housing blah de blah, if I had my way, everyone alive would get a roof over their head for free, damn the expense, but I don't so prisons will have to do. I said it in an earlier post how i feel about the prison system. I do however treat the value of people's lives very differently.

 

[BenBurch]

The Illinois State police were for a time using a forensics lab that literally faked its results.

And in general the science behind much of forensics is shoddy, and the lab work is often shoddy on top of that.

Like some of the people exonerated by DNA were wrongly exonerated, so it cuts both ways.

Certainty is only found in mathematics.