I'll throw a coal into this fire

[gecko]

Re: Gecko's gecko photo

I can't be sure, Gecko, but I don't believe the one who posted your "picture" meant to make fun of you. The way I look at it, you've kind of endeared yourself to us and that picture seals it. --SherryA

Hehe, yeah don't worry I wasn't really offended...though the story about that geico guy actually is true!

endeared myself to you? How so?

 

[TheBoyPaj]

psiload, or the guy with the super frightening pirate avatar(yeah, I remember people by these avatars, if I stay awhile i'll go find a gecko one )...your comment makes no sense my friend.

Do you mean me? That's a real picture of me. I'm not a pirate!

By stepping out of my own reason, I AM stepping out of the confines of my own skull. That's exactly what I'm doing.

And MY comment made no sense?

 

[El_Spectre]

Re: Re: Gecko's gecko photo

endeared myself to you? How so?

Some members here recognize their younger selves in you, maybe?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Here's the thing: when people confess that they are only going to believe what can be proven to them EMPIRICALLY, they aren't going to find God.

No. They also aren't going to "find" unicorns, or the Philosopher's Stone, or that the pyramids were built by reptilian aliens called the Anunnaki, or that Planet X is causing volcanos to erupt, or... That's the thing about empirical proof --- it makes it harder to prove things which aren't true.

Now, you want to use a different kind of reasoning... just for God? What does that tell you about your position? Will you also apply this same reasoning to the reptilian aliens and Planet X, or is it only your beliefs which get to have a completely different standard of proof?

Would you say, please, what this different standard of proof is? I am meant, it seems, to accept not only empirical proof, but proof gecko style. So what is your alternative standard of proof?

 

[Psiload]

yeah but then that begs the question whether you have to have something published to be considered an author/authoress...well this is off topic.

50 posts eh? Hmm...and you know, that geico gecko joke really hits home. The other forum that I sometimes post on(a christian forum ironically enough, I suppose the two cancel out) had somebody make fun of me with the same darn thing. Haha. Oh well.

I didn't offer it as an insult... I really thought It'd make a cool avatar.

btw... my avatar isn't a pirate. It's a character from a very... intriguing, shall we say... movie directed by Stanley Kubrick titled A Clockwork Orange (based on a book by Anthony Burgess).

The movie is rated R, so you might want to ask your parents(or pastor's) permission before watching it...

kidding... I'm only kidding... I'm such a kidder.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

well, I told myself I wouldn't post here anymore, but jref has some thing where they send me cocky emails that people are responding, so I read the replies, and then as a result I feel I have to say something...

For the record, I do think about my beliefs. A lot. I understand that whole unraveling faith thing as you start to look at all these arguments, trust me I've talked to more people about God vs. no God then you know. And its always the same...they try to convince me of their beliefs, I try to convince them of mine.

Here's the thing: when people confess that they are only going to believe what can be proven to them EMPIRICALLY, they aren't going to find God. You have to look to something deeper than the deep hollows of your own mind, something you don't even understand yourself.

So to those of you who said you once believed but now no longer do, please don't give up. If you read the Bible, you will learn readily that Satan's tongue is that of this "fallible reason" that he uses to try and make you doubt and think otherwise. Isn't it possible that your faith was shattered by such fallacious speech? It seems possible to me.

I'm not anti all learning, I was simply suggesting that we all go out and appreciate the world in our own eyes, completely aside from the tags and thoughts science throws upon them. And if those ideas we generate are flawed, so what. The thoughts science generates also are.

Finally, someone said I should study more into creationism vs. evolution. Why? Both are possible. The only time I really cared about the scientific evidence is when I felt unsure. So it really doesn't do me any good.

I'm going to assume that you are all sincere in your requests for me to "stick around". And learning is a good thing. So ok ok, I pledge to be open minded with what I read: in fact I'm becoming a little more unsure of these auras as I hear more lol. I only ask you do the same.

Brian

PS: and finally, for the 500 claims at how ignorant I am, how inept I am to learning anything, I can't help but throw it all back at you. How do you know that you all aren't ignorant and I actually know that which is true?

Don't drink the KOOL AID!

 

[Moose]

The movie is rated R, so you might want to ask your parents(or pastor's) permission before watching it...

kidding... I'm only kidding... I'm such a kidder. [/B]

He's not kidding about the rated R part though. Man, is it ever. *chuckle*

 

[Gr8wight]

On the day Jesus was born, Satan fought in the form of a dragon to slay the virgin mary and her son Jesus Christ

I beg your pardon? They didn't teach me that at Sunday school.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

gecko,

Have you seen the extremely funny "Life of BRIAN"?

 

[gecko]

Well, let's try to get to everything I read...

TheBoyPaj, no I didn't think you were a pirate! I meant the psiload guy, but apparently he wasn't either. *shrugs*

Ok, of the replies I've seen, the biggest one that it seems I should reply to involves the different kind of reasoning...maybe reasoning was a bad term. Hmm, this is hard to explain. *leans on his computer for what seems like eternity*

Ok, well, I believe in souls obviously, and a spiritual realm. And these spiritual things you obviously can't sense with your senses(at least not the 5 basic ones). It's something you just kind of feel I guess. Hmm, does that make sense? I don't think it does. Umm, its just something that goes beyond reasoning. Its something that you know without telling, without even thinking about. It's innate or something...umm...yeah.

You quoted me saying "different type of reason" and then started talking about "proof". What a fallacy! They're not really the same thing. Evidence is generally gathered empirically, but it can also be gathered based on our feelings and experiences. So maybe that's the infamous "gecko proof" lol.

Psiload, I actually don't have a pastor, since I don't go to church. We christians aren't as stereotypical as you may think Also, I know you were just kidding...try not to fall into the belief that as a christian I'm some "pure", "boring", or "perfect" person. Ok, I realize I talked about all the masturbation stuff so maybe that's where that belief came from, but, ah forget it. And maybe I'll snipe that geico guy just for the fun of it when I have enough posts, since you were so thoughtful to surf the web.

This whole post is a mess. I'm trying to explain the stuff I feel(which is hard enough in itself) to people who don't feel it. Yuck.

Oh, and Gr8wight...yeah they don't teach that in sunday school, or church, or anything like that. They want everyone to think Jesus and God are just "really nice guys" or something. You can read more about this in John Eldredge's "Wild at Heart". It's a long story, and I would just be paraphrasing the book, so I won't go into it.

And to TheBoyPaj's other comment...about the stepping out of one's own skull. That was more of a pun than strong argument, I just meant that by trying to comprehend the supernatural or divine that is beyond my own brain capacity, aka my skull. Oh well.

I'll be back in about 5 hours to find 20 more posts...hahaha. Have a good one, the weekend's here if you're in the US.

Brian

 

[gecko]

gecko,

Have you seen the extremely funny "Life of BRIAN"?

*shrugs*

Nope. What's it about? Is it relevant to anything or just the same name?

 

[patnray]

I don't know what good all this reasoning and research will do me. I already accept that my mind is too feeble to understand the absolute. I think it is from this inabilty to understand that non believing may really come from.

I don't believe that for a minute. Your well written posts make it clear that your mind is not to feeble to understand. Although you are young and still have much to learn, you are clearly intelligent and articulate.

I do believe you are being told your mind is too feeble to understand. This is a classic "conversion technique" used to "convert" military recruits or brian wash political dissidents as well as by religious proseletizers (and some psychotherapists). First convince the recruit that he is worthless and incabable of thinking for himself. Then, when his defenses are sufficiently broken down, offer him salvation in the form of the military, or the State, or God. As long as they embrace this solution they are saved from their own "worthlessness".

Thus you are made to believe that perfectly normal biological behaviour is "wrong" and a sinful. And you are made to believe that your mind is feeble. But you are given a way out as long as you accept god. T'ain't so...

As for "it is from this inabilty to understand that non believing may really come from", I suggest the opposite. The more we do understand, the more constrained religion becomes. It fails miserably at explaining the physical world. The more we learn the more religion becomes confined to spritual and ethical matters, which is fine, because these matters are more appropriate for religious thought. But the conflict between religious pronouncements about the physical world is upsetting to those who cannot accept religious texts as parables and allegories and insist it must be literally true.

From my perspective the christian bible is about humanity and the difficulties of the human condition, not about god. It is the human themes that resonate with all of us that give it its enduring power, not the supernatural wrappings....

But then I see the story of Adam and Eve as an escape from hell and ascension to paradise as they exercised their ability to acquire and use knowledge (which is what seperates them from the animals), not the other way around. But that negates the "original sin" concept so useful for breaking down people's sense of self worth (and makes Eve a heroine)...

Think about it...

 

[Moose]

Re: Re: Gecko's gecko photo

endeared myself to you? How so?

You seem to be a likable fellow, and you've handled yourself with a commendable degree of grace in this thread. That's something people can respect, even if they must eventually agree to disagree.

The Geiko gecko rocks.

Brian, this is just something for you to consider: No pressure (from me) or anything. This isn't something we're going to resolve this week.

But you see, there really is no conflict between science and faith. That conflict is purely a man-made construct, and has, IMO, more to do with domination than a search for the truth.

The basic question science is attempting to solve is "how?" How does the universe function? If I throw this ball really hard, what will it do? How can we better survive our environment? How can we detect natural disasters sooner so we can save more lives?

Science does not attempt to answer "why?" Why does the universe as we know it exist? Do we have a special purpose? This, perhaps, is a question best left to one's individual faith.

Brian, I suspect you're at the stage where the "why" is more interesting to you than the "how". That you're content to let the physical world attend to itself so long as you can come to understand your role in it? Am I right?

Many of us, I think, have come to realize that there's really no clear answers to the "why". I, for one, finally came to realize that my purpose in life is what I make of it. No more, no less. I am a product of my actions and my choices. I can be moral because it's in my nature to be moral. That's plenty enough purpose for me.

As I became comfortable with that realization, I started to see the world for the marvellously interesting place it really is. I want to know how things work. The "why" can attend to itself.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Sorry gecko. I was trying to be humourous. Monty Python's "Life of Brian" is a film that some Christians find offensive. You'd need to see it to understand.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

It occurs to me that gecko and jambo are about the same age and both have seen auras and describe weird experiences. They are also fervently "religious" in one way or another.

I wonder what denomination gecko is? He doesn't go to church and believes in apocrypha and creationism. What branch of Christianity is that? I'd like to know who is feeding him this stuff. It sounds very cultish.

Oh, on the teenager thing -- could their "experiences be anything to do with this:

It's not just the hormones ...
Scientists are discovering the real reasons for the hell of adolescence, writes Vivienne Parry
Thursday March 3, 2005
The Guardian
Something very strange happens at puberty, when truckloads of hormones begin arriving by the day. Children who were once sweet, helpful and good fun to be around turn, almost overnight, into grunting creatures, who wear nothing but black, lie abed until noon and consume 5,000-calorie snacks (followed immediately by saying that they are still hungry).
They are spotty, frequently smelly, and grow out of every item of clothing they have in the space of a few months. Their boredom threshold plummets and they do not seem able to concentrate on anything for more than five minutes at a time. You begin to wonder whether your child is a changeling, swapped with your own by an alien from the Planet MTV while you weren't looking.
Teenagers are trapped in limbo, neither children nor adults. An excruciating mix of vulnerability and potential, which by turns engages, inspires and alienates adults - everything they do has a high intensity feel about it. We know this because our own adolescent experiences - our first kiss, the first time we fell in love, the first time we drove a car alone - still burn brightly 30 or 40 years on.

. . . more interesting stuff in this article at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1428573,00.html

 

[Ladewig]

On the day Jesus was born, Satan fought in the form of a dragon to slay the virgin mary and her son Jesus Christ. However, Satan failed, and thenceforth vowed to try and stop all from believing Christ, aka God. So if you had all these thoughts trying to get you to reason beyond your beliefs, that very well may have been Satan.

I consider this post to be the straw that broke the camel's back. I am of the opinion that gecko is a troll. If I post in this thread again, please feel free to mock me relentlessly.

 

[Dr Adequate]

You quoted me saying "different type of reason" and then started talking about "proof". What a fallacy!

You seem to be talking to me here, and yet not quite. I quoted you as saying

Here's the thing: when people confess that they are only going to believe what can be proven to them EMPIRICALLY, they aren't going to find God.

You were talking about proof. You said "proven to them EMPIRICALLY".

They're not really the same thing. Evidence is generally gathered empirically, but it can also be gathered based on our feelings and experiences. So maybe that's the infamous "gecko proof" lol.

Ah. I thought that might be it. The trouble is, that goes for so many beliefs, doesn't it? Not just Christians, but Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims. The 9/11 bombers were using the "gecko proof" --- they had no empirical evidence that their suicide and murder would get them a special place in Paradise --- but they had "feelings and experiences" which convinced them that it was so.

Now, here's something to think about. If Christianity is true, then the "gecko proof" has led most people to be wrong. So what is the "gecko proof" worth? It's wrong most of the time. Why should it be right for you?

I'm trying to explain the stuff I feel(which is hard enough in itself) to people who don't feel it. Yuck.

This is not usually so hard to do. I like the comic operettas of Gilbert and Sullivan --- that wasn't so difficult, was it? But you are also trying to explain why the "stuff you feel" is a good basis for an outlook on the world that encompasses everything from the pettiest details of morality to the grandest concepts of cosmology. Does that leave a bad taste in your mouth? Yuck.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

I consider this post to be the straw that broke the camel's back. I am of the opinion that gecko is a troll. If I post in this thread again, please feel free to mock me relentlessly.

I looked up the John Eldredge guy and his book "Wild at Heart". He seems to be trying to appeal to young Christian men. It looks kind of cultish with "camping out with the boys" weekends and videos, DVDs, and lectures.

It all sounds a bit creepy to me.

You can read the "reviews" here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0785268839/103-2366658-1369467

 

[SherryA]

Gecko wrote:

Hehe, yeah don't worry I wasn't really offended...though the story about that geico guy actually is true!

endeared myself to you? How so?

SherryA wrote:

I don't know. I think some of us want to adopt you. We're like kangaroos with empty pouches. You, little kangaroo, hopped into the forum and we want to capture you and put you in our collective, protective pouch. ---SherryA.

 

[gecko]

Moose:
All right. About the "how" or "why". Does the "how" really matter at all? I guess maybe it could, but obviously the "why" is more important as far as I can see.

You say the "why" is something we can never find out. How do you know this? Just because you haven't found it doesn't mean its not there.

Ladewig:
Beautiful. We're down to name calling now...just because we don't necessarily understand each other it doesn't make me wrong and you right...

The Mighty Thor:
Somehow I doubt you read the entire book, or really looked at the deeper meaning behind the text. First of all, the book is NOT directed towards young men at all! It's directed towards older men!

Since the opinion you're getting is from someone who hasn't read the book, here's mine. The current christian, church going world has destroyed masculinity and femininity as we know it. The men are predictable, not spontaneous, they are passive, not bold, they are weak, not strong, and they are blind followers, not leaders in their own lives. Meanwhile, the women are bland, not unique, hesitant, not seductive, blind, not creative, and so much more. That is the heart of this book, and there is some great stuff here.

About that whole "teenager" quote...this is an exciting mess of stereotypes! Ok, so I'm a teenager, so I can't pay attention? I have a 3.814 GPA in college thank you very much; I've been going there since I was 14. I can't control my emotions and temptations? Well, you heard the whole masturbation thing, it took some time but I got through that, and I've pledged to dedicate my will to living as morally and respectfully as I can.

Come on, this is a total joke. Being discriminated by my age is just plain ridiculous. I really appreciate people saying that I am "smart for my age" or whatever, but it kind of comes off as an insult at the same time. How many years we've lived on this earth doesn't matter half as much as the experiences we've had in life. However, none of the experiences I try to talk about are taken seriously, because everyone's too busy spouting "ah, youth" and forgetting about the possibility that my words actually have truth in them! Forget it.