I'll throw a coal into this fire

[AOK Tiger]

Gecko,

I think I'm going have to confess that I really have no interest in doing as you advise...

I think I predicted this very attitude in my first post. Oddly enough it was you who started by offering US advice.

First of all, this life is short, and I think trying to understand the world is hopeless. We will never be able to understand it, so we're better off just living in it to the best of our abilities instead of just sitting around studying. This is, of course, just my opinion...

Yep and it’s a reasonable opinion.. but when you come here “advising” people who DO examine a lot of lifes mysteries expect the short shrift your “advice” may receive.

I don't know what good all this reasoning and research will do me. I already accept that my mind is too feeble to understand the absolute.

Forgive me but I would paraphrase this as.. I have my belief and NOTHING is going to change it so why bother !

I think it is from this inabilty to understand that non believing may really come from.

Whoa.. did you read that ?.. It actually the OPPOSITE.. an inability to understand leads to a BELIEF.. if you understand something you don’t believe you KNOW !

Its just something innate, something you feel, something you somehow know and cannot shake, at least for me.

Forgive me again but this is exactly the attitude that mental patients have !

Yeah...I realize I can never explain it...what can I say? I want to give you some advice of my own though...stop looking around and thinking about the world on this scientific aspect, and just look at the world. In all its marvel and beauty. How everything works. Take a deep breath of the air. Try to forget about all the tags and labels you have for this world, and just revel in this beautiful, God created earth...and know that the little nit picky rules and regulations of science really mean nothing.

Those picky little rules and regulations are FACTS.. your God is a mythical man made creation. I think you will find advising us to fantasise rather than base our lives on reality will fall on rather deaf ears.

I’ll give you something to dwell on.

Man is actually the great creator.. he created his own Gods. I always find this a delicious irony !

 

[gecko]

ok...apparently I came off too strongly in some way unbeknownst to me. I wasn't trying to tell you how to live your lives, sure maybe how I think you should live your lives, but not trying to come here as the absolute authority on everything.

So I fabricated God, eh? The funny thing is, you can't know this. You will never be able to know. The opinion that something isn't real is a constant, perpetual uncathartic opinion. You see, you could be living your whole life being wrong about this, because you can never know. Granted, all you can do is follow what seems most logical to you: for you, that is the stacked up evidence through reason, and through me, it is my personal experiences. I guess that's all.

EDIT: ok let's just end this shall we? I came here to hear what everyone else had said, to try and tell them where I'm coming from...I did that, and it didn't work. But at least I still believe, so I guess it didn't work either way. I know some kindred folk like jmercer welcomed me to stick around, but I think I am going to have to just take my leave. Therefore, I bid you all ado.

I don't think I'm some great thing or superior life form for believing, don't think this. I don't dislike any of you for not believing, I don't look down at you at all. We are all in this together, you know? There are forces of evil working against us. Dont' even bother to yell at me for saying it. I'm not coming back...you may think I'm running away. You may think I'm a coward. Does it really matter? No. So I'll just go now, so you can all go on with your lives. God Bless(and I really, really, really, really, really do mean that. Trust me.)

Brian

 

[El_Spectre]

ok let's just end this shall we? I came here to hear what everyone else had said, to try and tell them where I'm coming from...I did that, and it didn't work.

I have this rule I apply to debate... having been wrong many times in my life, I don't assume that I'm absolutely right this time, so I debate to learn, not necessarily to win.

The rule is this: Only have an argument where your objective is a better understanding of the truth, not just a restatement of your position.

Just a thought...

 

[gecko]

I understand what you're saying. This holds true for every argument save one to me.

I will never change my opinion about God. I never can, I dont' think. I can't explain it. That's why I don't see any point in getting into it...

As I said, I just came here to say what I thought, and hear what y'all had to say. I appreciate you all for your opinions and wish you the best.

 

[SezMe]

I will never change my opinion about God. I never can, I dont' think. I can't explain it. That's why I don't see any point in getting into it...

Well, Brian, that is just a load of crap. The very first sentence in the very first paragraph in your OP was this:

First of all, I want to say hello. My name is Brian, and I was once quite the skeptic myself. I didn't really believe in God, and I didn't really believe in the paranormal.

I thought your OP indicated an openess to dialogue. Subsequent posts slowly led me to change my mind. Your last post makes it clear that you are a hypocritical liar.

Bah. Go away.

 

[metamorphium]

Hey gecko,

I see what you mean. You thought: I'll come here say them about optical illusion trick, they will try it, fall for it and I'll easily convince them ... of God. They will believe immediately and everybody will be happy ever after.

I am sorry, it didn't work. Instead it was a nice discussion which could have given you some insight on how some tiny portion of real world works. You obviously don't have a desire to learn some of that so I am signing off this thread.

SherryA: unfortunately I don't think that primary desire of woo's is to discover something new. Much too usually they simply want to get easy money. Given the prices of their *services* it's entirely unlikely those persons are even remotely interested in anything else than balooney. And the result in combination with how people are susceptible to manipulation is the world filled with people believing in nonsense.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

umm, umm, umm *looks around nervously*

I'm sorry, I can't possibly reply to all of the things you all said...and I'm sorry, but I can't possibly prove God to you.

Of course not. Because if you actually think through your beliefs one step at a time, your beliefs will unravel.

Think about it from the perspective that God exists. If he does exist(i know he does, but i'm taking this at a neutral perspective), then he gave us the free will to choose or reject him. That is clear. Therefore, he wouldn't let us PROOVE he exists, because that would not be choosing him. It would be learning to be forced to choose him. Understand?

Sorry to tell you this, but your particular twisted logic here is a Christian propaganda smoke screen. Why would 'God' produce a world where all you ever have to indicate his presence is a story passed on by someone else to you? Why shouldn't 'God' appear before all of us and say follow me? Why would it be more satisfying to 'God' to have people believe only without evidence?

Perhaps there is some verse in the Bible you'd care to cite that says something like, "And God said to the people, "I'm going to conceal my existence. I demand you worship me but it won't satisfy me unless you worship me against all odds. It is up to you to convince the next generation and for that generation to tell the next generation and so on about my existence. If you fail, all your children will go to hell."

So, in all respects, its illogical that God could ever be proved.

No, it isn't illogic, it is Christian rationalization for continuing to believe something that is so obviously a myth. Coyote didn't steal fire from heaven. Pele is a volcano, not a real being. And the Christian religion is just as mythical as is Zeus and Vishnu.

.....Ok, I can't tell you that everything on that site is real, or that ghosts ghouls and goblins exist. All I can attest to, of the things I've looked into, are lucid dreams and auras.

Looked in to? No you haven't. You decided 'whatever' and then refused to look at 'whatever' in any sort of critical way.

.....Haha, well, this whole thread went, well, exactly how I suspected it would.

Too bad, though, I had some hope you actually might think about what other people had to say here.

I can't prove to you that auras exist anymore than that my name is brian...lol.

Not without something more than your personal testimonial. If I testified to you that the Earth was going to open up and swallow you tomorrow would there be any reason at all for you to say, "Gee, OK. If you're telling me this it must be true"?

 

[SherryA]

God in the details

SherryA said earlier:

Why don't more of us realize what a phantasmagoria surrounds us, one that our own senses and hard science shows us? If there is a god, he/she/it is in the details. I'm talking about the details you can see with your own eyes, or under a microscope, or under a telescope.

SherryA says now:

Brian/Gecko, I suspect you entered the forum for deeper reasons than you know, and I'm impressed with the compassionate tone of forum members who have responded to the thread you started. I'm not telling you not to believe in god, son. Send me a private message or email me through my website and I'll discuss it with you. ---SherryA.

www.sherryaustin.com

 

[Tricky]

I will never change my opinion about God. I never can, I dont' think. I can't explain it. That's why I don't see any point in getting into it...

Respectfully, I submit that you will change your opinion about God. You may continue to believe in Him/Her/It but your conception of God will change, as it has already. It is neither possible nor praiseworthy to hold a single set of views that are immune to revision with more information. Frankly, I always find it odd that People of Faith take such pride in being uable to admit error.

 

[Ashles]

I think I'm going have to confess that I really have no interest in doing as you advise...

First of all, this life is short, and I think trying to understand the world is hopeless. We will never be able to understand it, so we're better off just living in it to the best of our abilities instead of just sitting around studying. This is, of course, just my opinion...

I don't know what good all this reasoning and research will do me. I already accept that my mind is too feeble to understand the absolute. I think it is from this inabilty to understand that non believing may really come from. Its just something innate, something you feel, something you somehow know and cannot shake, at least for me.

Yeah...I realize I can never explain it...what can I say? I want to give you some advice of my own though...stop looking around and thinking about the world on this scientific aspect, and just look at the world. In all its marvel and beauty. How everything works. Take a deep breath of the air. Try to forget about all the tags and labels you have for this world, and just revel in this beautiful, God created earth...and know that the little nit picky rules and regulations of science really mean nothing.

This really is an incredibly sad post. Watching someone declare they have no interest in learning always actually upsets my in a deep way.
It's like taking the gift of this amazing brain that we have been given and then just wanting to throw it in the bin.

Even if someone thinks that God exists how could they possibly feel that God wouldn't want them to learn and discover?

The fact is gecko you know that doing some learning would show you how wrong you are in several of your currently held beliefs. Your knowledge about creationism and evolution is just plain wrong, and is demonstrably wrong. But you actively refuse to read the real information because you wish to cling to the lies that you are using to bolster your beliefs.

Do you not think your faith would actually be stronger if you were able to read all the true facts about evolution and then still be able to love God? Is your faith so weak that you avoid anything challenging?

I will never change my opinion about God. I never can, I dont' think. I can't explain it. That's why I don't see any point in getting into it...

Maybe you will change your mind, maybe you won't. But believe me gecko, you're not exactly the first 16 year old in history to be utterly convinced of something, only to later change their mind.

I'm sorry if it appears as if I am coming across strongly - I enjoy debate with people with different opinions or beliefs, but when people actually openly admit they are not interested in finding out the truth about life (to the extent of avoiding reading anything that mght challenge their worldview) then I think that person has given up on one of the most important parts of living -
searching for new knowledge and information.

If there is a God I can't believe he would want people to bury their head in the grounds.

This is also how groups end up not understanding other groups and how fundamentalism and hatred are spread.

We are not claiming there is no God, merely that we don't know. In the absence of any evidence I have personally come to the conclusion there isn't one. And I have travelled widely, been in love, done many interesting and varied things and seen things of staggering beauty, both man-made and natural.

I actually think I appreciate the world more fully than you currently do, because you appear to be scared of learning about certain areas. I don't have that fear.

But if you change your mind and do wish to learn more about new areas then please feel free come back and question.

 

[SherryA]

Metamorphium wrote:

SherryA: unfortunately I don't think that primary desire of woo's is to discover something new. Much too usually they simply want to get easy money. Given the prices of their *services* it's entirely unlikely those persons are even remotely interested in anything else than balooney. And the result in combination with how people are susceptible to manipulation is the world filled with people believing in nonsense.

Sherry A responds: Yes, Meta, there's a lot of truth in what you say, but I've met hundreds and hundreds of people (they approach me at book signings with nothing to "sell") who are simply hungry to believe. In fact, they don't want my money; they buy MY book, believing--wrongly, and when I can I warn them otherwise, I do--that it will confirm their hope that the dead aren't really dead.

This desperation is often heart-wrenching, I'm telling you. Because of my subject matter, they assume I am sympathetic to their belief in the paranormal. I've had people come up to me in tears. They've lost a parent or spouse or child and they depend on the belief that their dead are not really dead just to put one foot in front of the other for one more day. That's all the more reason to despise those charlatans who prey on their emotions, and, as all of us who are fans of Randi know, there are way too many of them. They bring out the worst in me, don't doubt it. I'm as angry at them as any of you. Yet even the charlatans, as Randi has pointed out, are often innocent in a way: Some of them, a minority no doubt, have deluded themselves that they are in contact with the dead or can govern their own lives and help others govern their lives by diviniations such as aura reading and astrology. Many times other people have duped them into believing they're gifted at palm reading or are psychic, as Randi's video, SECRETS OF THE PSYCHICS, shows so well. All my life people have told me I'm psychic and I can't convince them otherwise. I just happen to be someone who knows better. I find myself wanting to choke the Sylvia Brownes of the world and wanting to pat the hands of the other type, and lead them out of the woods.

You keep up the good work, all you bright young minds! --- SherryA.

 

[Ipecac]

Ya know, Brian, when I was 16 I believed the same things you believe. I was unshakeable in my faith and certain of how the world works. As I became wiser, I realized that dogma and closed-mindedness weren't going to teach me anything about life and reality. When I abandoned my religious beliefs I was absolutely liberated. Living without superstition is infinitely preferable to a life of close-minded belief.

 

[Ladewig]

Ya know, Brian, when I was 16 I believed the same things you believe. I was unshakeable in my faith and certain of how the world works. As I became wiser, I realized that dogma and closed-mindedness weren't going to teach me anything about life and reality. When I abandoned my religious beliefs I was absolutely liberated. Living without superstition is infinitely preferable to a life of close-minded belief.

If I may build on Ipecac's post. Brian, if you want a hearty laugh, print this entire thread out, seal it in an envelope and give it to a relative or friend with the instructions that he or she should return the envelope to you when you are 26.

 

[rppa]

I think I'm going have to confess that I really have no interest in doing as you advise...

First of all, this life is short, and I think trying to understand the world is hopeless. We will never be able to understand it, so we're better off just living in it to the best of our abilities instead of just sitting around studying. This is, of course, just my opinion...

I could never understand where the anti-science attitude comes from. This really saddens and frightens me. So you are saying that all scientific advance was a bad thing, because it was the result of people striving to understand just a little more about the world than was known before? We should all go back to sleeping in caves and pounding rocks? Because we can never know everything we are obligated never to try to learn ANYTHING?

To me an obvious question for a religious person who says things like this is, "Do you think God gave you a brain but wants you never to use it?" But as I have seen fundamentalists leaders railing against courses in critical thinking, I'm afraid I know the answer to that question.

How do you reconcile your attitude that it is wrong to learn new things about the world, with living in an artificial home, using the telephone, driving a car or riding a bus, wearing cloth, etc? Doesn't it seem evil to you to take advantage of people who have studied the world to learn how to make life a little more comfortable, since such study is evil?

 

[gecko]

well, I told myself I wouldn't post here anymore, but jref has some thing where they send me cocky emails that people are responding, so I read the replies, and then as a result I feel I have to say something...

For the record, I do think about my beliefs. A lot. I understand that whole unraveling faith thing as you start to look at all these arguments, trust me I've talked to more people about God vs. no God then you know. And its always the same...they try to convince me of their beliefs, I try to convince them of mine.

Here's the thing: when people confess that they are only going to believe what can be proven to them EMPIRICALLY, they aren't going to find God. You have to look to something deeper than the deep hollows of your own mind, something you don't even understand yourself.

So to those of you who said you once believed but now no longer do, please don't give up. If you read the Bible, you will learn readily that Satan's tongue is that of this "fallible reason" that he uses to try and make you doubt and think otherwise. Isn't it possible that your faith was shattered by such fallacious speech? It seems possible to me.

I'm not anti all learning, I was simply suggesting that we all go out and appreciate the world in our own eyes, completely aside from the tags and thoughts science throws upon them. And if those ideas we generate are flawed, so what. The thoughts science generates also are.

Finally, someone said I should study more into creationism vs. evolution. Why? Both are possible. The only time I really cared about the scientific evidence is when I felt unsure. So it really doesn't do me any good.

I'm going to assume that you are all sincere in your requests for me to "stick around". And learning is a good thing. So ok ok, I pledge to be open minded with what I read: in fact I'm becoming a little more unsure of these auras as I hear more lol. I only ask you do the same.

Brian

PS: and finally, for the 500 claims at how ignorant I am, how inept I am to learning anything, I can't help but throw it all back at you. How do you know that you all aren't ignorant and I actually know that which is true?

 

[Steven Howard]

well, I told myself I wouldn't post here anymore, but jref has some thing where they send me cocky emails that people are responding, so I read the replies, and then as a result I feel I have to say something...

You can turn that feature off in the User Control Panel.

 

[TheBoyPaj]

If you read the Bible, you will learn readily that Satan's tongue is that of this "fallible reason" that he uses to try and make you doubt and think otherwise.

Are you saying that reason is satanic? Someone else once said that here, you know.

But hang on. While composing your post, didn't you try to put across reasoned points? How do we know you're not the devil?

 

[rppa]

Here's the thing: when people confess that they are only going to believe what can be proven to them EMPIRICALLY, they aren't going to find God.

So you believe that God will never be manifested empirically in your own life, or in anyone else's. OK.

I'm not anti all learning,

Perhaps you aren't. But you SPEAK against all learning.

I was simply suggesting that we all go out and appreciate the world in our own eyes, completely aside from the tags and thoughts science throws upon them. And if those ideas we generate are flawed, so what. The thoughts science generates also are.

You're saying, unlike what you said earlier, that it is indeed a good thing to study the world and learn from observation. I'm all for personal curiosity and exploration. It helps you realize that science is a thing that touches all of us.

Science is a formalized system for adding other people's observations to our own. When this system was created, it allowed us, as a collective body, to advance knowledge and the quality of life. You say somehow it's good to make 10 observations on your own and draw conclusions from your limited data sample, but somehow if you get together with 10 other people and draw stronger conclusions from 100 observations, that's bad.

I don't get it.

You also seem to be saying that science hasn't found all the answers yet, therefore the knowledge that has been obtained is worthless. Then again I prevail upon you to stop using electricity, computers, telephones, cars, clothing, houses, artificial heat, or any manufactured goods. Because all of those things are the result of people learning a small thing and applying that knowledge empirically.

PS: and finally, for the 500 claims at how ignorant I am, how inept I am to learning anything,

You may be ignorant. That's not a crime, or a sin. You seem to be professing a pride in your ignorance, an awareness that there is knowledge out there which you are going to refuse to learn. That *is* a sin.

I can't help but throw it all back at you. How do you know that you all aren't ignorant and I actually know that which is true?

Those of us who are curious and make an effort to learn more tomorrow than we knew today, know that we are making an effort to learn more tomorrow than we knew today.

If there is a book, and I read it, and you refuse to, then I can say with utter confidence that I know more about the content of that book than you do. I'm not saying whether that makes me a better person than you do, but the objective data is certainly that I have information which you don't. That's incontestable.

 

[Ashles]

well, I told myself I wouldn't post here anymore, but jref has some thing where they send me cocky emails that people are responding, so I read the replies, and then as a result I feel I have to say something...

That's an option you can turn off in your settings.

And how on earth can the e-mails be cocky? What do they say other than notifying you that you have responses?

For the record, I do think about my beliefs. A lot. I understand that whole unraveling faith thing as you start to look at all these arguments, trust me I've talked to more people about God vs. no God then you know. And its always the same...they try to convince me of their beliefs, I try to convince them of mine.

Here's the thing: when people confess that they are only going to believe what can be proven to them EMPIRICALLY, they aren't going to find God. You have to look to something deeper than the deep hollows of your own mind, something you don't even understand yourself.

But that's exactly the problem isn't it. Your system doesn't even allow for the possibility of there being no God so you are only looking to bolster what you have already decided.
And looking "deeper than the deep hollows of your own mind" sounds very exciting but it doesn't actually mean anything useful does it.
You are coming across rather arrogant, implying to a lot of people older than you that you are the only one of us who has seriously thought deeply about these issues. We have all been 16, and we know how certain you can feel of things at that age. I guarantee this changes.

So to those of you who said you once believed but now no longer do, please don't give up. If you read the Bible, you will learn readily that Satan's tongue is that of this "fallible reason" that he uses to try and make you doubt and think otherwise. Isn't it possible that your faith was shattered by such fallacious speech? It seems possible to me.

So you are advocating deserting reason and logic. Well then you kind of lose your way in life don't you. What do you do then?
You could of course try and live solely by the Bible, with all it's contradictory advice and encouragement to absolve yourself of responsibility for your own decisions.
And then it's time to start shunning menstruating women, and not eating shellfish and condemning homosexuals etc. (Although the bible doesn't actually say anything about homosexuals)

I'm not anti all learning, I was simply suggesting that we all go out and appreciate the world in our own eyes,

I already have done to an extent, I would guess, far, far beyond what you have gecko.

completely aside from the tags and thoughts science throws upon them. And if those ideas we generate are flawed, so what. The thoughts science generates also are.

But science constantly tries to correct its own flaws. Religion doesn't.

Finally, someone said I should study more into creationism vs. evolution. Why? Both are possible.

Well there is only evidence for one of them.

The only time I really cared about the scientific evidence is when I felt unsure. So it really doesn't do me any good.

So you felt unsure, cared about the scientific evidence, yet totally ignored it, or failed to read it.
Anyway ealier you said there was scientific evidence for creationism. This was incorrect. You could at least have the strength to admit you were incorrect about that.

I'm going to assume that you are all sincere in your requests for me to "stick around". And learning is a good thing. So ok ok, I pledge to be open minded with what I read: in fact I'm becoming a little more unsure of these auras as I hear more lol. I only ask you do the same.

Brian

PS: and finally, for the 500 claims at how ignorant I am, how inept I am to learning anything, I can't help but throw it all back at you. How do you know that you all aren't ignorant and I actually know that which is true?

We aren't the ones who refuse to expose ourselves to information.
I have read the bible, studied religions, visited many creationist and fundamentalist sites as well as reading the scientific information.
I have read both sides of the debate. You freely admit you haven't.
That hardly puts you in a strong position to be able to claim knowledge.

What you have is purely a belief based on no evidence. That's your right of course. And if you accept that then that's okay. (Obviously that means that you can't argue for it logically as you are dismissing logic as a tool of Satan - too bad)

But you mentioned creationism and evolution, and there are very clear facts on the subject that I hoped you might be interested in learning, so that you don't trot out debunked and incorrect information to others for the rest of your life.

If you do so in future I hope you realise that you will actually be lying, as you now know that there is information out there that shows what you are claiming to be false.

 

[Psiload]

***snip***
PS: and finally, for the 500 claims at how ignorant I am, how inept I am to learning anything, I can't help but throw it all back at you. How do you know that you all aren't ignorant and I actually know that which is true?***snip***

Because ignorance is invariably the end result of belligerent refusal to critically examine one's beliefs.

Because the truth is rarely ever discoverd by those that aren't willing to step out of the confines of their own skulls to search for it.