I'll throw a coal into this fire

[Moose]

PS: and finally, for the 500 claims at how ignorant I am, how inept I am to learning anything, I can't help but throw it all back at you. How do you know that you all aren't ignorant and I actually know that which is true?

Ah, Brian, two corrections, as I see it:

1) Ignorance: Ignorance isn't something to be ashamed of. We all start out life knowing very little, and as we grow, we learn. There are many things I'm ignorant of. I'm twice your age, and yet formal logic is something I'll only ever have a rudimentiary grasp of. (Grammar too, judging by this post.)

Ignorance is something we all have to strive against. But so long as we're striving, we have nothing whatsoever to be ashamed of.

2) Inept: Actually, nobody's saying you're inept at learning. I personally have no doubt at all you're a bright kid. No, what we're worried about is your unwillingness to question any portion of your beliefs. "I've seen it all" is a dangerous opinion to hold so early in one's life.

I'm almost exactly twice your age and I'm nowhere near a point where I'd be comfortable resting on my laurels. If I'm as wise as I hope I am, I won't be anywhere near done learning and challenging my perceptions of the world when I'm twice my age.

You see, the reason nobody's particularly worried about you "actually know[ing] what is true" is that scepticism is all about coming to grips with our limitations... our ignorance... and not being afraid of being proven wrong.

Those who apply for the Challenge need only be able to provide clear, repeatable evidence that claim [whatever] is correct.

 

[jmercer]

Re: God in the details

I'm not telling you not to believe in god, son. Send me a private message or email me through my website and I'll discuss it with you. ---SherryA.

www.sherryaustin.com

Nice website. I'll have to check out your books.

 

[supercorgi]

First of all, this life is short, and I think trying to understand the world is hopeless. We will never be able to understand it, so we're better off just living in it to the best of our abilities instead of just sitting around studying. This is, of course, just my opinion...

Brian, I am sorry that you have taken the easy way out and assumed just because one person cannot understand everything in the universe, that therefore the search for knowledge is a useless waste of time. You are bright young man that is basically commiting yourself to a life of ignorance and denying yourself the chance to learn some of the wonderous things we already know about how the world works. You've given up before you've even started and that's really sad.

If all people took this view, mankind wouldn't even be mankind. The first pre-human would have never picked up that first stone and realized that it could help him cut and smash things and help him get food. We would have never built on that so simple and basic of discoveries and you wouldn't have the clothes you wear, the telephone you talk on, and the computer you're reading this on today.

I want to give you some advice of my own though...stop looking around and thinking about the world on this scientific aspect, and just look at the world. In all its marvel and beauty. How everything works.

Umm...how are you going to know how everything works if you've absolutely given up on trying to understand how things work? And I think you're totally misguided as to what a skeptical and scientific viewpoint add to someone's view of the world. I sit here looking out my window, enjoying the perfect blue of the sky, the lovely songs of the birds, and the motion of the tree branches in the breeze. All very, very beautiful and serene. I marvel at how beautiful nature can be.

But the fact that I understand why the sky is blue, why birds sing, and what causes the tree branches to move, in no way lessens my enjoyment of the beauty around me. If fact, my knowledge enhances my enjoyment of everything and gives me another whole level of enjoyment which I think you are missing out on. The amazing complexity of the world around me and knowing how beautifully it all works together is a constant source of wonder to me. The fact that I am here, a conscious, curious mammal with a big brain, who has the capacity to appreciate beauty and know what lies behind that beauty, is a source of wonder. And guess what? I don't have to believe in God, or that God waved his hand and made it all happen, in order to experience this wonder. It just is and everything I learn about how the world works increases this sense of wonder.

I'm sorry that you're going to be missing out on all this by just sitting there with your smug attitude, denying the usefulness of exploration and learning, and just saying "God did it" without any proof whatsoever that there even is a God. And why is it you religious types always pity us poor atheists because you think we must lead sad, grey little lives just because we don't believe in the "glory of God"? Sorry, it's just not true. In fact, I pity all you blinded, religious types because you miss out on the wonder and beauty in this life and in the real world because you're so busy worrying about the next life.

 

[SherryA]

Kindness, gentleness, please

Okay, folks, let's not forget that it is a sixteen year old young man who began this thread. I'm concerned he might feel he's being ganged up on. Yes, I know debate is what forums are about. And yes, I know he started this one, and, for the most part, I think we've addressed his issues fairly, but remember, the views he expresses, however wrong we think they are, are also held by people many years older, with much more education and experience. If---IF---we are wiser than he, how many of us were so wise at sixteen? Think back to what you were interested in, what you believed, what fascinated you at sixteen? It takes many, many years and much experience for most of us to be able to swallow skepticism and agnosticism. His outlook is not at all unusual for one his age, or even many years older. And I think he is much, much more open than his emails suggest. Let's take the approach that the late Carl Sagan and his wife, Ann Druyan did, and remember that, except for out and out money-grubbing charlatans, most people who express these views are trying--as all of us continue to do--to understand the world and their place in it.

--- Sherry Austin.

www.sherryaustin.com

 

[SherryA]

Re: God in the details

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SherryA
I'm not telling you not to believe in god, son. Send me a private message or email me through my website and I'll discuss it with you. ---SherryA.

www.sherryaustin.com

Sherry writes: Brian, I repeat that offer in case you didn't see it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jmercer wrote:
Nice website. I'll have to check out your books.

Sherry writes: Thanks, Jmercer. Actually, the first book is ghost stories, which might not interest many skeptics. However, they are fictional stories. The fictional ghost story genre is one most people don't know about because they are over-shadowed by campfire-type tales and stories "told for the truth," the kind most people who read ghost stories demand. However, the short, fictional ghost story or weird tale, does have many fans among hardcore skeptics and atheists such as S.T. Joshi, the well-known H.P. Lovecraft scholar. He has many books out, THE MODERN WEIRD TALE, among them, as well as many books on supernatural literature and skepticism. His most recent book is GOD'S DEFENDERS: WHAT THEY BELIEVE AND WHY THEY ARE WRONG. He makes excellent points, though, as with most books published by Prometheus Books, they are ascerbic for many people's taste. Strangely enough, I have found that some of the most fervent champions for supernatural fiction are people who would never take a shred of it seriously. I'm one of those, I guess.

My next book I'd describe as naturalized gothic, and afterwards, I hope to write nonfiction, as described on my website.

 

[gecko]

thanks sherry, but I'm fine. Of course I'm being ganged up on, they disagree with me, so they have to state what they believe.

First of all, about the Satan + reason thing. No, of course not all reason is satanic, I was just saying to those who once believed in God but suddenly found themselves barraged by varying beliefs, trying to get them to forsake their faith, that can be Satan. On the day Jesus was born, Satan fought in the form of a dragon to slay the virgin mary and her son Jesus Christ. However, Satan failed, and thenceforth vowed to try and stop all from believing Christ, aka God. So if you had all these thoughts trying to get you to reason beyond your beliefs, that very well may have been Satan.

Once again, when you say that ignorance is ok you are still assuming I am ignorant. "Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in spirit, in faith, in purity." 1 - Timothy 4:12

So maybe I'm ignorant, maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. Right? Oh man, that was intended to be confusing wordplay. Oh well.

To the person with the cool dog avatar(which i really like!), I dont' think I've taken the "easy way out" and assumed that because we can't learn everything we shouldn't learn anything. I think we should try to learn, but we should also try to live. I don't know, maybe it sounds wierd, but sometimes I think its better to just stop caring about all the things science says, all the labels, and just love the world for what it is. It gives such a glorious opinion of this world, which is, in fact, a creation by a perfect being. Even with the fallible corruption, pollution, and evils of humans, there's some perfect about this world that I can't describe. But you're not going to find that in a science book, I promise.

Finally, I didn't mean to sound like "I've seen it all". I just don't know how reasoning through my own mind, rather than through that which is divine, will help me in my faith at all. If you mean so that I can repel contrary claims by other people, and therefore strengthen my faith by testing it, I guess I understand what you're saying there. But I don't think reading about the world in a science book is going to really strengthen that.

psiload, or the guy with the super frightening pirate avatar(yeah, I remember people by these avatars, if I stay awhile i'll go find a gecko one )...your comment makes no sense my friend. By stepping out of my own reason, I AM stepping out of the confines of my own skull. That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm accepting that my mind can't comprehend the supernatural, and I am therefore searching for it on a spiritual level. Knowledge comes in more forms than just one, as does intelligence. They are all really relative in the end. So bear in mind that reason may not be the best, or only, way to find God.

I apologize for how long my posts get. Try to understand that I am honestly attempting to reply to every message I get, though I'm sure I miss some. The ball is in your court, so one of you can choose your racket and smack it back with ten-fold the speed (hehe sorry I like tennis ).

Brian

 

[jmercer]

I've noticed an upsurge in the science-fiction and fantasy genre's of the supernatural stories, and I've been following a few of my favorite authors. (And authoress's, assuming I'm spelling that correctly...)

Frankly, I really enjoy the way these writers create a logically self-consistent alternative world, and then play out storylines that are constrained by the "new rules". For me, one of the best parts is the inherent self-consistency of the better writers.

Sorry about the derail, folks - back to lurking and reading this thread.

 

[gecko]

oh, haha, and sorry about the "cocky emails" thing. There's just something about "Hey gecko, 30 more people replied to your post" that screams "haha going down punk". In reality they're not really cocky.

And I can turn that off? How?

 

[gecko]

I've noticed an upsurge in the science-fiction and fantasy genre's of the supernatural stories, and I've been following a few of my favorite authors. (And authoress's, assuming I'm spelling that correctly...)

Frankly, I really enjoy the way these writers create a logically self-consistent alternative world, and then play out storylines that are constrained by the "new rules". For me, one of the best parts is the inherent self-consistency of the better writers.

Sorry about the derail, folks - back to lurking and reading this thread.

Is there really a female version of the word author? I thought the word could imply either gender. *shrugs*

 

[jmercer]

oh, haha, and sorry about the "cocky emails" thing. There's just something about "Hey gecko, 30 more people replied to your post" that screams "haha going down punk". In reality they're not really cocky.

And I can turn that off? How?

Click the "User CP" button at the top, go to "Edit Options", and look under messages - just click on the "No" for getting an email to forum posts.

 

[Moose]

Is there really a female version of the word author? I thought the word could imply either gender. *shrugs*

It'd be news to me if there was.

 

[SherryA]

Jmercer, the derail into fantasy literature was my bad, not yours.

Jmercer and Gecko, yes the word author applies to both sexes. Personally, I prefer writer.

Gecko, my mentioning science books in my earlier posts was only an abbreviated way to say look at what IS. As you've pointed out, you don't have to go to science to see that what we know, what we can experience with our senses is extraordinary beyond our ability to comprehend it. Books by excellent science writers, who have both knowledge and verbal finesse, can deepen your appreciation, just as reading good books on any subject can. People who putter around in gardens, hike, or climb mountains know this implicitly, but what scientists can tell us deepens our understanding so much. As Carl Sagan liked to say, "it makes for a more majestic view." It doesn't much matter how you connect with the real world, as long as you do, and as long as you know that even if everything you believe falls away, there is still wonder in the world, and no one can take that away from you.

About this part of your post, Gecko:

First of all, about the Satan + reason thing. No, of course not all reason is satanic, I was just saying to those who once believed in God but suddenly found themselves barraged by varying beliefs, trying to get them to forsake their faith, that can be Satan. On the day Jesus was born, Satan fought in the form of a dragon to slay the virgin mary and her son Jesus Christ. However, Satan failed, and thenceforth vowed to try and stop all from believing Christ, aka God. So if you had all these thoughts trying to get you to reason beyond your beliefs, that very well may have been Satan.

This is simply not so, buddy. This is a STORY. Here's where wider reading can help you out. The more you read of the world's great literature (this is NOT saying you have not), the more you read of mythology and all the creation stories and legends of how evil came into the world, the more you will see what story is. Whatever god there is gave us a mind to use and I don't believe he'd plant a Satan in it for the pure pleasure of watching him trip us up. ---SherryA.

 

[Psiload]

***snip***

psiload, or the guy with the super frightening pirate avatar(yeah, I remember people by these avatars, if I stay awhile i'll go find a gecko one )...your comment makes no sense my friend. By stepping out of my own reason, I AM stepping out of the confines of my own skull. That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm accepting that my mind can't comprehend the supernatural, and I am therefore searching for it on a spiritual level. Knowledge comes in more forms than just one, as does intelligence. They are all really relative in the end. So bear in mind that reason may not be the best, or only, way to find God.

Brian

Here you go...

The Geico Gecko:

or maybe you'd prefer The Gordan Gecko:

Do we still have the 100 or something posts "earn your avater" rule?

 

[El_Spectre]

Here you go...

The Geico Gecko:

or maybe you'd prefer The Gordan Gecko:

Do we still have the 100 or something posts "earn your avater" rule?

Methinks it's 50 (not that I'd know...)

Speaking of which... the little title under your name changes occasionally (in my case, from "New Member" to "Student"). What prompts that ?

 

[Darat]

Methinks it's 50 (not that I'd know...)

Speaking of which... the little title under your name changes occasionally (in my case, from "New Member" to "Student"). What prompts that ?

It's 50 for an avatar.

As for the title change, well we run a very advanced text parsing system that evaluates each and every post you make. It categorises and works out your belief system and your level of true scepticism™ then it generates an appropriate title well it’s either that or it's auto triggered on reaching a certain number of posts. I can't remember which.


(Edited for words.)

 

[jmercer]

Is there really a female version of the word author? I thought the word could imply either gender. *shrugs*

Yep. Author & Authoress.

 

[jmercer]

It'd be news to me if there was.

Merriam-Webster Online certainly thinks so - Authoress

 

[gecko]

yeah but then that begs the question whether you have to have something published to be considered an author/authoress...well this is off topic.

50 posts eh? Hmm...and you know, that geico gecko joke really hits home. The other forum that I sometimes post on(a christian forum ironically enough, I suppose the two cancel out) had somebody make fun of me with the same darn thing. Haha. Oh well.

 

[SherryA]

Gecko's gecko photo

I can't be sure, Gecko, but I don't believe the one who posted your "picture" meant to make fun of you. The way I look at it, you've kind of endeared yourself to us and that picture seals it. --SherryA

 

[El_Spectre]

It's 50 for an avatar.
It categorises and works out your belief system and your level of true scepticismâ„¢ then it generates an appropriate title

Heh... it's funny, I get my forum notifications at a gmail address, and the ads all tend to be for religion and astrologists