If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. Part II

[MicahJava]

Steel doesn't do well in fire, especially when it's unfought. This is like 3rd grade level science. I mean if you have evidence steel strengthens during a fire please post it.

Then certainly it should be a breeze to come up with a specific progressive collapse theory that involves typical weakening steel rather than thermal expansion?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

There was no basis at 11 AM, 12 PM, or 1 PM to say that WTC 7 would collapse. If operations were abandoned due to the danger of the actual fire, that wouldn't be suspicious, but it wasn't. The collapse zone was made because a person identified as an engineer from the Office of Emergency Management told them that it would collapse in five or six hours, which lead to the fire chiefs making the decision to pull away.



Having the firefighters avoid WTC 7 like the plague would prevent them from figuring out a way to extinguish the fires, such as recharging the sprinkler system by connecting a water line to the siamese fittings.




Because of course you have to find a motive for a crime before you begin investigating it.



Stage 1: http://i.imgur.com/gXi2bmF.gifv

Stage 2: Some time between 10:30 AM and 12:00 PM, person(s) sneak in to WTC 7 to set fires on separate floors.

Stage 3: "Engineer" tells fire chiefs that WTC 7 is in danger of collapse.

Stage 4: http://i.imgur.com/n5lqQ70.gifv

Of course, I'm not saying there's any way to know this is how it would go down.

Two other buildings collapsed that day from fire, all that was nessisary was to determine rate of Creep change to give an estimate of when the leaning bulging building would reach the critical loading to collapse!
An engineering professional used his knowledge to save lives, and dimwitted Truthers call him a mass murderer, stupid is as stupid does and that is just stupid.

 

[NoahFence]

You seem fixated with 6 seconds.

It was your assertion.

 

[DGM]

There was no basis at 11 AM, 12 PM, or 1 PM to say that WTC 7 would collapse.

Source of this claim?

 

[Myriad]

Source of this claim?

Logical deduction.

A new investigation must be completed before any credible statement about the collapse of a building can be made.

As soon as any investigation is completed, it is no longer a new investigation.

Therefore, no investigation can be completed and new simultaneously.

Therefore, a completed new investigation cannot occur.

Therefore, no statement about the collapse of a building can ever be credible.

A prediction of the impending collapse of a compromised burning building would be a credible statement about the collapse of a building, if there were basis for such prediction.

Therefore, any such prediction must have had no basis.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Logical deduction.

A new investigation must be completed before any credible statement about the collapse of a building can be made.

As soon as any investigation is completed, it is no longer a new investigation.

Therefore, no investigation can be completed and new simultaneously.

Therefore, a completed new investigation cannot occur.

Therefore, no statement about the collapse of a building can ever be credible.

A prediction of the impending collapse of a compromised burning building would be a credible statement about the collapse of a building, if there were basis for such prediction.

Therefore, any such prediction must have had no basis.

I often think that the little voices in a truthers head, come from the wind whistling in though
the ears, as it is sucked into an intellectual singularity, black hole, in between those said ears.

. We know no cognitive thought escapes from there.

 

[ProBonoShill]

There was no basis at 11 AM, 12 PM, or 1 PM to say that WTC 7 would collapse. If operations were abandoned due to the danger of the actual fire, that wouldn't be suspicious, but it wasn't. The collapse zone was made because a person identified as an engineer from the Office of Emergency Management told them that it would collapse in five or six hours, which lead to the fire chiefs making the decision to pull away.

Says who?

You didn't answer my question, was the fire and area around WTC 7 dangerous or not?

Having the firefighters avoid WTC 7 like the plague would prevent them from figuring out a way to extinguish the fires, such as recharging the sprinkler system by connecting a water line to the siamese fittings.

Why would they want firefighters to "avoid WTC 7 like the plague" when they have murder on their mind. Wouldn't they want them in the building when it collapsed to add to the death toll. You're not making any sense?

Where would they find this water line, please explain?

Because of course you have to find a motive for a crime before you begin investigating it.

That didn't answer my questions at all.

Again:

Well list a few, I'd like to hear a plausible explanation on why a group you claim wanted murder thousands of it's fellow citizens waited 7 hours and ended up killing not a single person.

Does that sound rational to you?

Stage 1: http://i.imgur.com/gXi2bmF.gifv

Stage 2: Some time between 10:30 AM and 12:00 PM, person(s) sneak in to WTC 7 to set fires on separate floors.

Stage 3: "Engineer" tells fire chiefs that WTC 7 is in danger of collapse.

Stage 4: http://i.imgur.com/n5lqQ70.gifv

Of course, I'm not saying there's any way to know this is how it would go down

Ahhh so you're just trolling and have no evidence. No wonder more people now believe in BigFoot than the idiocy of 9/11 truth. Good job! You'll have that new investigation in no time!

 

[ProBonoShill]

Then certainly it should be a breeze to come up with a specific progressive collapse theory that involves typical weakening steel rather than thermal expansion?

You think thermal expansion strengthens steel?

Can't wait for your explanation. Give it to us please.

 

[ProBonoShill]

Okay so cutter charges weren't used and thermite wasn't used, what substance brought down the towers then? Did this substance bring down all three towers and the other buildings that collapsed that day or just the WTC 1, 2 and 7?



Iron microspheres are present in a lot of situations.

What exotic accelerant? Does it have a name?

Was this exotic accelerant the cause of the explosion heard in the Ashley Banfield video you posted?

And still waiting micah...

You do know people can read and see you're avoiding questions right?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

One thing these discussions always tend fo overlook is that the "thermal expansion" and "fire" issues were collapse initiation mechanisms. The collapses were divided into two phases., not one. The dominant mechanisms in collapse progression were not the same as the ones involved in initiation.

Its a shame that we are repeating the drawn out discussions where the "skeptics" questioning the collapse events seem to have binary thinking on how many factors were involved

 

[Andy_Ross]

Explosive devices designed to rip through solid steel are probably factored out. They are too loud and they leave obvious damage on the steel which was not noticed or seen in photographs.

As for "shrapnel", a while back I gave some examples of shrapnel injuries by WTC victims/survivors.

What were charges needed for if not to cut through solid steel?
If you factor them out then where were the charges?

 

[Andy_Ross]

The only evidence for anything other than a few pockets of fire on a few floors are firefighter's witness accounts, many of which erroneously described the smoke sticking to the south face as "all 47 floors engulfed in fire".

Firefighters at the scene don't know how big the fire was that they were there to fight?
Were they incompetent or liers.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Having the firefighters avoid WTC 7 like the plague would prevent them from figuring out a way to extinguish the fires, such as recharging the sprinkler system by connecting a water line to the siamese fittings.*

Where would the water come from?

 

[beachnut]

Half-truth. After ELEVEN HOURS OF RAGING FIRES, an engineer on the scene said that maybe there was danger of collapse. He did not say that it would collapse and he did not try predicting when it would collapse. It did not collapse. The building remained standing as a charred skeleton.



So, interior structural steel slowly and gradually sagged without sudden catastrophic failure? That's nice.

They were putting water on the fire from other buildings, saved it....

One Meridian Plaza totaled by fire, just like WTC 1,2,3,4,5,6,7... fire did it, 9/11 truth can't figure it out - Hint: 19 terrorists did 9/11, no one else. 9/11 truth lies - what a great movement.

Oops, you mock the murder of thousands with no evidence for the delusional CD fantasy. I thought 19 terrorists were gullible, then we have those who believe in 9/11 truth, those who need a new investigation based on some fantasy - the fringe few, the gullible, 9/11 truth.

I've heard this one before, those quotes are describing human bodies hitting the ground!

Oh wait, that's not funny at all.

And it is sad you posted the lies from this paper.

Collapse or Explosion? A Discussion of the WTC “Sounds of Explosions” Issue by Adam Taylor

Adam Taylor lies to you, you are easy to fool, or what? He includes simile as his proof for explosives, yet you and Adam Taylor can't produce any steel which was subjected to explosives. Adam posts photos of steel damaged by the collapse, and lies, saying they look like explosives did it - and he is a... a failed writer. Why are you fooled by his lies?

You post a failed paper, and never retracted the lies it has. Why?

Adam Taylor uses simile for proof of explosives; thus a body hitting the ground sounds like an explosion; for Adam, this is proof of explosives. You guys lie to support some fantasy world.

Here is the problem with Adam's pathetic work, he uses the bodies hitting things as proof for explosives, and you have no clue he is a liar. Why do you put up with liars and believe them blindly? Is this another in the idiotic conspiracy theories you have from JFK, RFK, OKC, and 9/11... do you have more. Chemtrails? What makes you fall for the "new investigation" nonsense. You don't understand fires not fought, and how steel fails. Thermal expansion has you confused? You referred to One Meridian Plaza which had thermal expansion damage. oops - and you failed to mention One Meridian Plaza did not have a big hole in it...
lol, you said One Meridian Plaza burned for hours, whereas WTC complex fires burned for weeks. Try to match that with your woo and limited Gish Gallop. You ignore the biggest office fires in history with steel stripped of fire protection, and fall for the lies of 9/11 truth.

Adam Taylor uses "sounded like" as proof of CD. He waves his hands enough to achieve LEO, and declares CD/Explosives without evidence. Now that is gullible on anyone's part to cite Adam's work of woo, which cites his other work of woo, and other idiots in 9/11 truth failed papers. https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/whattheyheard
9/11 truth believers share shallow or no research. A movement that uses quote mining to form fake evidence.

9/11 truth believers have the problem of not reading and studying the BS they post as reference for driving their need for a new investigation. You posted Adam's work which does not support his conclusion of explosives. You don't read and comprehend the nonsense which fools you into needed a new investigation, and believing CD. The papers 9/11 truth believers like you post, are self-debunking, you failed to fool references and check the evidence; it turns out the evidence is made up claptrap.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1997183&postcount=1

oops, it was train

 

[Mentalpygmy]

Why waste my time?

You're wasting your time already - so what's the difference?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[tfk]

Please provide a video that mimics what is seen here on a real CD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6n7AG2YJ-I

Though hundreds of videos exist showing the collapse of WTC 7, not a single solitary truther has ever been able to provide one, why don't you be the first.

Collapse or Explosion? A Discussion of the WTC “Sounds of Explosions” Issue by Adam Taylor

Adam Taylor?
Adam f****** Taylor???

You just refuse to learn.

Everything that’s gone wrong in your screwed up version of reality is due to the fact that you give credence to the opinions of amateurs and ignore professionals.

I gave you a link to an elaborate report by Brent Blanchard, Operations Manager for Protec, a company that performs seismic monitoring services for explosive demolitions companies. An expert in the field of "seismic recordings of controlled demolitions".

That company had seismic sensors strewn around Manhattan on 9/11/01.

Blanchard wrote up a detailed analysis on why NO explosive demolitions could possibly have happened on 9/11 and avoided being recorded on his seismometers.

Your response: Silence.
Not one word. You didn’t even bother to read the report from an expert on the topic that you keep screwing up, did you.

Now, you come back with … Adam Taylor.

Let me introduce you to the clueless moron that is Adam Taylor:
From AE911T:

Currently a university student. Am not a huge science expert, but have a basic understanding of physics, especially Newton's Laws of Motion.

I can assure you, Micah, that he has NO CLUE about any aspect of Newton’s Laws of Motion.
I DO know them. I taught them (& a lot more) to college engineering students.

Apparently he studied liberal arts & political science, and now works in “business services”.
In other words, he is 100% clueless about structural engineering, physics, building collapse … or any pertinent 9/11 field of study.

He has ZERO knowledge of any aspect of engineering.
He wrote a 5 part series that he claims “debunks” the Popular Mechanics “Debunking 9/11 Myths”.

The Popular Mechanics staff are EXPERTS in “writing fact based technical articles”. That’s what they do for a living. That’s what they get paid for.
Every one of the people listed below is an expert in the specific field of the questions which Popular Mechanics posed to them.
Popular Mechanics depended on the opinions of ZERO amateurs.

Let’s look at the references used by Popular Mechanics for their article:

From the 2006 book
2006 edition

"To investigate 16 of the most prevalent claims made by conspiracy theorists, POPULAR MECHANICS assembled a team of nine researchers and reporters who, together with PM editors, consulted more than 70 professionals in fields that form the core content of this magazine, including aviation, engineering and the military.”

Sources:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a5697/debunking-911-myths-sources/

Air Crash Analysis
Cleveland Center regional air traffic control
Bill Crowley special agent, FBI
Ron Dokell president, Demolition Consultants
Richard Gazarik staff writer, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
Yates Gladwell pilot, VF Corp.
Michael K. Hynes, Ed.D. ATP, CFI, A&P/IA president, Hynes Aviation Services; expert, aviation crashes
Ed Jacoby Jr. director, New York State Emergency Management Office (Ret.); chairman, New York State Disaster Preparedness Commission (Ret.)
Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority
Cindi Lash staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Matthew McCormick manager, survival factors division, National Transportation Safety Board (Ret.)
Wallace Miller coroner, Somerset County, PA
Robert Nagan meteorological technician, Climate Services Branch, National Climatic Data Center
Dave Newell director, aviation and travel, VF Corp.
James O'Toole politics editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Pennsylvania State Police Public Information Office
Jeff Pillets senior writer, The Record, Hackensack, NJ
Jeff Rienbold director, Flight 93 National Memorial, National Park Service
Dennis Roddy staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Master Sgt. David Somdahl public affairs officer, 119th Wing, North Dakota Air National Guard
Mark Stahl photographer; eyewitness, United Airlines Flight 93 crash scene

Air Defense
Lt. Col. Skip Aldous (Ret.) squadron commander, U.S. Air Force
Tech. Sgt. Laura Bosco public affairs officer, Tyndall Air Force Base
Boston Center regional air traffic control
Laura Brown spokeswoman, Federal Aviation Administration
Todd Curtis, Ph.D. founder, Airsafe.com; president, Airsafe.com Foundation
Keith Halloway public affairs officer, National Transportation Safety Board
Ted Lopatkiewicz director, public affairs, National Transportation Safety Board
Maj. Douglas Martin public affairs officer, North American Aerospace Defense Command
Lt. Herbert McConnell public affairs officer, Andrews AFB
Michael Perini public affairs officer, North American Aerospace Defense Command
John Pike director, GlobalSecurity.org
Hank Price spokesman, Federal Aviation Administration
Warren Robak RAND Corp.
Bill Shumann spokesman, Federal Aviation Administration
Louis Walsh public affairs officer, Eglin AFB
Chris Yates aviation security editor, analyst, Jane's Transport

Aviation
Fred E.C. Culick, Ph.D., S.B., S.M. professor of aeronautics, California Institute of Technology
Clint Oster professor of public and environmental affairs, Indiana University; aviation safety expert
Capt. Bill Scott (Ret. USAF) Rocky Mountain bureau chief, Aviation Week
Bill Uher News Media Office, NASA Langley Research Center
Col. Ed Walby (Ret. USAF) director, business development, HALE Systems Enterprise, Unmanned Systems, Northrop Grumman

Image Analysis
William F. Baker member, FEMA Probe Team; partner, Skidmore, Owings, Merrill
W. Gene Corley, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. senior vice president, CTL Group; director, FEMA Probe Team
Bill Daly senior vice president, Control Risks Group
Steve Douglass image analysis consultant, Aviation Week
Thomas R. Edwards, Ph.D. founder, TREC; video forensics expert.
Ronald Greeley, Ph.D. professor of geology, Arizona State University
Rob Howard freelance photographer; WTC eyewitness
Robert L. Parker, Ph.D. professor of geophysics, University of California, San Diego

Structural Engineering / Building Collapse
Farid Alfawakhiri, Ph.D. senior engineer, American Institute of Steel Construction
David Biggs, P.E. structural engineer, Ryan-Biggs Associates; member, ASCE team for FEMA report
Robert Clarke structural engineer, Controlled Demolitions Group Ltd.
Glenn Corbett technical editor, Fire Engineering; member, NIST advisory committee
Vincent Dunn deputy fire chief (Ret.), FDNY; author, The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety
John Fisher, Ph.D. professor of civil engineering, Lehigh University; professor emeritus, Center for Advanced Technology; ember, FEMA Probe Team
Ken Hays executive vice president, Masonry Arts
Christoph Hoffmann, Ph.D. professor of computer science, Purdue University;
project director, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University
Allyn E. Kilsheimer, P.E. CEO, KCE Structural Engineers PC; chief structural engineer, Phoenix project; expert in blast recovery, concrete structures, emergency response
Won-Young Kim, Ph.D. seismologist, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University
William Koplitz photo desk manager, FEMA
John Labriola freelance photographer, WTC survivor
Arthur Lerner-Lam, Ph.D. seismologist; director, Earth Institute, Center for Hazards and Risk Research, Columbia University
James Quintiere, Ph.D. professor of engineering, University of Maryland member, NIST advisory committee
Steve Riskus freelance photographer; eyewitness, Pentagon crash
Van Romero, Ph.D. vice president, New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology
Christine Shaffer spokesperson, Viracon
Mete Sozen, Ph.D., S.E. Kettelhut Distinguished Professor of Structural Engineering, Purdue University
Shyam Sunder, Sc.D., acting deputy director, lead investigator, Building and Fire Research Laboratory, National Institute of Standards and Technology
Mary Tobin science writer, media relations, Earth Institute, Columbia University
Forman Williams, Ph.D. professor of engineering, physics, combustion, University of California,
San Diego; member, advisory committee, National Institute of Standards and Technology
__


We’ve already seen Adam Taylor’s expertise in “writing fact based technical articles”:
He has none.

We’ve seen his expertise in air crash analysis, Air Defense, Aviation, Image Analysis, Structural engineering and building collapse.
He has none. In ANY of those topics.

But he feels qualified to “debunk” the opinions of experts in each of those fields.

So, let’s see the reference that Adam uses:

References for Part 1 of his Series:

i Quoted from: City in the Sky: The Rise and Fall of the World Trade Center by James Glanz and Eric Lipton, pg. 134-136
[James Glanz thinks that 9/11 Twoofers are morons, by the way.]

ii Quoted from: Twin Towers Engineered To Withstand Jet Collision, The Seattle Times
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930227&slug=1687698
[Taylor doesn’t have the slightest f’king clue what he’s yammering about. I outlined why he is 100% wrong, here.]

iii For more information on the pre-9/11 claims about the Towers’ strength, see:
http://[B]911research[/B].wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html

iv The following links provide arguments against the lobby damage being caused by explosives:
http://[B]911research[/B].wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/theories/basementbomb.html
http://[B]911review[/B].com/errors/wtc/preimpact.html
http://[B]911review[/B].com/errors/wtc/basementbombs.html
http://[B]911research[/B].wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/wtc.html#rodriguez
http://[B]911research[/B].wtc7.net/reviews/911mysteries/index.html#precollapse_sub_basement_explosions

v The following link provides arguments against the lobby damage being caused by a jet fuel fireball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtEw4GA_hOg#t=11m24s

vi This paper provides detailed measurements for how much fuel actually remained on the impact floors, and shows that the amount in either Tower was actually quite small in relation to each Tower, much less a single floor:
http://www.journalof911studies.com/letters/e/VisualizationAidsWTCTowers.pdf
vi iSee: http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/Article_5_118Witnesses_WorldTradeCenter.pdf
__

Do you get the picture yet??

Amateurs deluding amateurs.

Amateurs like you.
Deluding amateurs like ... yourself.

 

[tfk]

I've told you that I've got >40 years experience as a mechanical engineer.

I don't believe you.

LMAO.
What on earth deludes you into thinking that I give a rat's ass what you believe?

 

[tfk]

I simply wouldn't know how to calculate how loud an explosive device would be if it was designed to knock off columns and girders by their welds/joints/bolts, nor how much explosives it would take. Why not ask somebody else?

Gee, maybe, just maybe there are people around who know how to do that calculation.

Maybe some of them have actually already done that calculation.

Perhaps they might have written up & published a report that might tell you this very interesting piece of information.

Perhaps, it turned out that for people 1/2 mile away from the building, it would have been as loud as a cherry bomb going off at your feet.

Perhaps all those videos (or REAL CDs that you refuse to listen to) can NOT give you a real concept of how loud a real CD is, because no computer speakers, even turned up to maximum, can not come CLOSE to the real volume.

Perhaps you need to plug your computer's audio output into a really powerful audio system, and then crank the volume until the blasts are deafening to you, startling to the people next door & you FEEL the percussion in your chest.

Perhaps all the above was a part of that NIST report that you refuse to read...
... so you have time to read all that incompetent ********* written by clueless amateurs.

If only you spent less time listening to clueless amateurs...

Do you see the pattern yet?

 

[tfk]

Maybe that OEM engineer used his psychic powers to wish 8 stories away.

Again, you lie to yourself, and then you believe your own lies, and then you lie to others.

The guy that operated the transit worked for the FDNY, not the OEM.

The engineer that the FDNY consulted with, worked for the FNDY, not the OEM.

You lie to yourself.

Then you spread your lies to others.

That's shameful.

 

[Redwood]

Massive? Your understanding of that word is disappointing. I hope I am not the only person you have disappointed after using that word.

Nope! No massive fire here! It's just smoke from the smoke generators that Larry Silverstein smuggled into WTC 7 and hid away in broom closets!