IDF General Sued For "Targeted Killings"

[webfusion]

Incoming!!!!

The Palestinians should stone the Islamic Jihad morons with rocks every time they go out in public. It's about time they started building a country instead of allowing those thugs to cause IDF artillery shellings into the backyards of otherwise peaceful civilians.

• Unlike Hamas, senior IDF sources said, Islamic Jihad is not in the habit of considering the consequences of its actions on the lives of the Palestinian population.

Meanwhile, Palestinian President and Chief of The Whole Kit & Kaboodle, Muhammed Abbas, managed to take time out from his busy schedule to say this:
"Israel has left the Gaza Strip and has no right to come back," Abbas told reporters in Gaza. "They should not make any pretext."

Come Back? We''re not coming back, Mr Abbas, we are sending long-distance air mail. Special Delivery.

Pretext This!

--------------------

See ya around Orwell, don't let the door slam you in the a-- on your way out.

 

[zenith-nadir]

So what else happened in Gaza today...

Dec. 28, 2005 17:46

Three British citizens were kidnapped as they entered the Gaza Strip from Egypt through the Rafah crossing on Wednesday, Palestinian witnesses and security officials said.

The hostages were reported to be a female human rights worker, 25 years old, and her parents who were visiting from England.

According to a Channel 2 report the woman's name is Kate Barton. Other agencies noted that she worked at the Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights.

Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:56 PM GMT16

GAZA (Reuters) - Israel shelled the northern Gaza Strip on Wednesday to enforce a "no-go zone" it says is aimed to stop cross-border rocket fire by militants, and the Palestinian Authority condemned the move.

Of course the Palestinian Authority condemned the move...then they'll blame Israel....

Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:56 PM GMT16 - continued

At least 12 artillery shells landed after the new measure went into force at 6 p.m. (4 p.m. British Time), wounding a militant and a teenage bystander. Another shell narrowly missed a car, whose occupants fled. Witnesses said a rocket crew was nearby.

Palestinians condemned the buffer zone, calling it tantamount to re-occupying land Israel withdrew from in September after 38 years of occupation.

Do you see the game Orwell? "wounding a militant and a teenage bystander. Another shell narrowly missed a car, whose occupants fled. Witnesses said a rocket crew was nearby." This is the part where you say:

Jocko: the IDF targets civilians, sometimes deliberately so. Read the damn links.

"Palestinians condemned the buffer zone, calling it tantamount to re-occupying land Israel withdrew from".

Well that "land" was unoccupied a few short months ago, thank you very much, and what did the Palestinian terrorists do with the new land? Why it became Kassam season for the terrorists of Hamas and Islamic Jihad...and the PA did nothing...they allowed terrorists to fire their Kassams at will... at civilians living next door in a neighboring country!

Here's the numbers.

11:53 Dec 21, '05 / 20 Kislev 5766

...there were 62 Kassam attacks in September (all in the second half of the month), 16 in October, 29 in November, and 49 so far this month. In total, then, there were 156 rockets since Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza this past August. Over 80 more Gaza-fired Kassams landed during this period inside Gaza, short of their targets.

156 rockets since Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. 156 in four months!

Your "truth". By the way, you, Zenith-Nadir, are what is called a useless idiot. You asked for it, you got it.

The reason I call you a useful idiot Orwell is because you don't get it. Just like the others before you just didn't get it. I assume you came to JREF because you consider yourself some sort of skeptic. Well Mr. skeptic here is the large amount of data on which you could derive a conclusion. That conclusion is that the Palestinian terrorists are not "fighting for Palestinian Nationalism". That is a well-worn lie. They are fighting to destroy Israel...and they always have been. If Islamic Jihad and Hamas were actually "fighting for Palestinian Nationalism" then they would have to listen to the commands of Abbas the elected leader of the Palestinians. But they don't. So then obviously they have another agenda. That agenda is the destruction of Israel. It has been this way for decades.

Abbas promises endlessly to stop the Kassam attacks just like Arafat used to promise endlessly to stop the suicide bombers and rocket attacks. I've documented it repeatedly. So what happens? Neither of them ever stop the Palestinian terrorists... so Israel is forced to. That is the reality on the ground "over there".

And this is where you come in to the debate, like others did before you. Without context. Without full knowledge. You say:

Now, does the IDF target Palestinian civilians? I know they do. Amnesty International says so, Human Rights Watch says so, other humanitarian organisations say so, my local newspaper says so...

Well the IDF is bombing the crap out of Northen Gaza as I type this post.... and it is as it always was...occupied or unoccupied...the Palestinian terrorists terrorize, the leader of the Palestinian Authority pledges and promises and eventually the IDF is left to do the dirty work which results in:

"wounding a teenage bystander. Another shell narrowly missed a car, whose occupants fled.", and this is just they type of event where - without context - you parrot the useful idiots around the world:

Jocko: the IDF targets civilians, sometimes deliberately so. Read the damn links.

 

[WildCat]

Well the IDF is bombing the crap out of Northen Gaza as I type this post.... and it is as it always was...occupied or unoccupied...the terrorists terrorize, Abbas pledges and promises and eventually the IDF is left to do the dirty work.

I predict Orwell will call you a partisan hack.

 

[webfusion]

He's left, with a wave...

Don't count on Orwell to pick up where he left off... I think he's genuinely mad.

Z-N indicates:
"156 rockets since Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. 156 in four months!"

IIRC, that is actually about the same as the number fired during the time Israel still occupied the Strip. By the way, the ZOA which cites the 'Red Dawn' numbers, counted all launches (239), and not just the landings inside Israel (156) discounting the misfires and shortfalls of over 80 ----- those 80+ need to be counted as well, since they might have reached their destinations inside of Israel, except for their notoriously poor construction and bad trajectories).
http://www.zoa.org/pressrel2005/20051222a.htm (December 22nd)

• Since September 15, a total of 239 rockets have been fired at Israel, according to the Red Dawn warning system, which monitors Qassam launches. This rate of rocket fire does not differ greatly from the period prior to the disengagement, when the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) still controlled the Gaza Strip.

In any case, the withdrawal from Gaza is not the 'end of occupation' and so long as there are outstanding issues (thousands of Palestinian detainees at Ketziot & Megiddo, ongoing construction of the so-called "wall", tenders for more houses in the West Bank, etc etc,) then it is useless to say that Gaza is now free and the Palestinians living there no longer have any greivances. They are within the same realm as the rest of the Palestinians, and are not about to just disconnect themselves from everything else around them.

That is not to say that firing rockets and mortars is a proper way to express political dissatisfaction by any stretch of the imagination, but besides from being really annoying, can it be said they are "destroying Israel"?
C'mon.

The Islamic Jihad is acting on orders from Tehran, in coordination with their brethren in Lebanon. The mullahs are looking for a distraction. In fact, they are probably hoping that Israel sends over a few F-15's to blow up the facility at Natanz, then they would look to be the ones "hard done by" and garner sympathy at Israel's expense (as did Iraq after the Osiriq raid). Israel was a pariah after that escapade. Everyone has such short memories!

 

[zenith-nadir]

I predict Orwell will call you a partisan hack.

Probably.

Anyone intimately connected to Israel who has knowledge about "realities on the ground" hears from the useful idiots all the time. It goes like this WildCat.

Since 1994 Palestinian suicide bombers kept blowing up Israelis and the PA under Arafat did nothing. So Israel set up checkpoints in the occupied territories to catch the bombers before they got into Israel and the useful idiots around the world attacked Israel for "humiliating" the Palestinian population.

Since 1994 Palestinian terror leaders kept sending bombers and the PA under Arafat did nothing to arrest them. So Israel started targeted killing terror leaders and the useful idiots around the world attacked Israel for "targeting" Palestinians.

Since 1994 there were Salaries For Suicide Bombers where relatives of Palestinian suicide bombers recieved $10,000 to $25,000 per family and the PA under Arafat did nothing. So Israel started punishing instead of rewarding the families by buldozing their homes and the useful idiots around the world attacked Israel for "collectively punishing" the Palestinians.

Finally after taking so much heat for trying to stop the Palestinian terrorists by checkpoints, targeted killings and home demolitions Israel went to plan "D", a physical barrier to thwart suicide bombers. Well once again the useful idiots around the world took Israel to the International Court of Justice in the Hauge and the useful idiots there ruled Israel’s security barrier was illegal and unjustified. Israel said "F"-you International Court of Justice. So far the justification is the barrier works pretty damn well at stopping suicide bombers... but now the useful idiots around the world attack Israel for "stealing land".

So Israel went to plan "E" and Sharon said "ok...fine....let's go way outside of the box....here's Gaza back". So what happened? 156 Kassam rocket attacks by Palestinian terrorists from Gaza in just four months and a couple suicide bombers. And once again, the PA under Abbas does nothing. The same old same old.

This is where guys like Orwell come into the debate - out of context - to tell me Israel is A) "humiliating Palestinians", B) "targeting Palestinians", C) "collectively punishing Palestinians" or D) "stealing land from Palestinians". These are they type of people I call useful idiots.

 

[zenith-nadir]

That is not to say that firing rockets and mortars is a proper way to express political dissatisfaction by any stretch of the imagination,

Neither was the Munich Massacre, the Ma'alot Massacre, Lod Airport Massacre, Coastal Road Massacre, Achille Lauro is hijacking, the Karine-A ship loaded with 50 tons of weapons, over 100 suicide bombings, plus thousands of other bombings, hijackings, assassinations and attacks.

And that is my point Web. After what? 30? 40? years isn't enough enough? Terrorizing Israel is no longer an acceptable way to express political dissatisfaction. Likewise hearing the PA promise endlessly to end terror and never actually ending Palestinian terror is also no longer acceptable.

but besides from being really annoying, can it be said they are "destroying Israel"? C'mon.

Kassams? Nope. The real danger is the PA allows it to happen. Today the terrorists fire Kassams, maybe tommorow it'll be Katushas or SA-7s or Stingers...

then it is useless to say that Gaza is now free

Palestinians can go anywhere in Gaza that they wish. They can even travel into Egypt and beyond. That is pretty free in my books. Travel to the West Bank? Well that's another story...because of continued terrorism. And I agree, since it was a unilateral disengagement there are many outstanding issues remaining.

 

[webfusion]

Even the IDF says it's not likely to be effective..

So far the justification is the barrier works pretty damn well at stopping suicide bombers... but now the useful idiots around the world attack Israel for "stealing land".

So Israel went to plan "E" and Sharon said "ok...fine....let's go way outside of the box....here's Gaza back". So what happened? 156 Kassam rocket attacks by Palestinian terrorists from Gaza in just four months and a couple suicide bombers. And once again, the PA under Abbas does nothing. The same old same old.

The claim of 'stealing' Palestinian land goes back quite much farther than the security barrier/wall, Z-N. We could trace that to the 1967 crossing of the Green Lines (in fact, I started a thread about that HERE). Others will argue that the stealing of Palestinian lands began in 1948, or even in the 1800's (see:demon).
Personally I don't even think the conflict has anything to do with land.
It goes deeper to an islamic fundamentalist attitude that jews should be destined to remain as dhimmis and the very idea of jews running a really advanced independent modern state and being successful makes the islamic world (not just the Palestinians) nuts.

Arik Sharon left Gaza, fully expecting the Qassem rockets to continue, there is no doubt he knew that. There is nothing supporting any claim that indicates otherwise. In fact, as I pointed out just now, your number of 156 is too low, and nearer to 300 launches have been made, according to the IDF 'Red Dawn' phased-radar system. Remember, this number is equal to launches ongoing for months BEFORE the withdrawal, while the IDF had total control in Gaza!

Abbas is doing the correct thing, as a candidate in the run-up to the elections. He told the Israelis, "you deal with it" --- and the current no-go zone is the best the Israelis can hope for.
General Staff sources admit also that even if the rocket-launch cells are pushed back beyond the buffer zone, they will still be able to hit at Israeli territory.

The IDF has been in exactly this situation before, with the Lebanon cross-border firing (and is still involved up North, as we see). What is the solution?

Wouldn't you like to know? !!!!

 

[webfusion]

Palestinians can go anywhere in Gaza that they wish.

Except the no-go zone!

After what? 30? 40? years isn't enough enough? Terrorizing Israel is no longer an acceptable way to express political dissatisfaction. Likewise hearing the PA promise endlessly to end terror and never actually ending Palestinian terror is also no longer acceptable.

Get used to it, this stuff will probably will go on for another 40. What end do you see in sight?
(see: HAMAS running for election to Palestinian Parliament and terrorists being incorporated onto the PA Police force! )

 

[Skeptic]

Orwell has debated idiots his whole life, I'd bet.

Yes, the number of idiots who don't know a damn thing Orwell just happens to meet must astound him. Obviously, everybody is an idiot except for him.

 

[Skeptic]

You got what? Let me get this straight... You got me by lying and distorting what I have been saying? That's how you clowns "debate", innit?

Well, of course you say I'm "lying" (or lying, as you emphasized--I can just see you shouting at the monitor as you wrote it), Orwell.

For two reasons:

1). Rather transparent denial, a well-known psychological defense mechanism. In other words you're raging at me for accurately telling you how you look, instead of yourself for being a fool.

2). Since, like all fools, you are 100% convinced that you have the absolute truth, you naturally believe that when someone wins an argument against you--which, just between you and me and the lamppost, isn't difficult--it just has to be because they are evil or lying or stupid, etc.

I mean, what other reason could there be for them to disagree with the holy truth? After all, we all know there is no truth but what Orwell believes, and Orwell is its prophet.

 

[David Swidler]

Skep, you're skirting ad hominem territory. Address his statements, not his personality.

I think it's time to let this thread die a quiet death. It's just going in circles. IMHO the only reason at this point to further this discussion is if someone changes his mind. We can all see how likely that is.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Dec. 29, 2005 9:56

An IDF officer was killed and around 10 people were wounded in a suicide bombing in the West Bank on Thursday morning.

A suicide bomber detonated himself at a surprise IDF roadblock south of Tulkarm, near Shavei Shomron. The bomber was driven in a taxi to the area, and when he exited the vehicle, soldiers asked him to open his coat. He refused, and set off his explosives.

Three Palestinians - the taxi driver and two passengers - were also killed in the attack. It was unclear whether there were other Palestinian fatalities.

The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack, which wounded both Israelis and Palestinians.

Once again the islamist terrorists send yet another murderer on yet another suicide. This time an IDF officer and three Palestinians were blown to bits by this Islamic Jihad nutjob.

But you wanna know the irony?

The bomber was driven in a taxi to the area, and when he exited the vehicle, soldiers asked him to open his coat. He refused, and set off his explosives. Three Palestinians - the taxi driver and two passengers - were also killed in the attack.

The taxi driver who drove the suicide bomber was also killed by the bomber. As were two innocent Palestinians sitting in the taxi. This is the world Orwell knows nothing about.

Israeli soldiers examine the scene of an explosion close to an army checkpoint near the West Bank city of Tulkarm December 29, 2005. (Mustafa Abu Dayeh/Reuters)

Except the no-go zone!

Speaking of which.

A Palestinian man shows a leaflet written in Arabic with an accompanying map airdropped by Israeli planes over Gaza warning Palestinians to keep out of the area declared no-man's land 'security zone' by Israel, in northern Gaza Strip. Israeli artillery batteries bombarded the northern Gaza Strip after a deadline expired for Palestinians to evacuate a new security zone which is intended to stop rocket attacks.(AFP/Mohammed Abed)

 

[zenith-nadir]

I KNEW this old myth would be dragged out of it's hole soon.

BBC - Wednesday, 28 December 2005, 20:20 GMT

"The ways of buffer-zones, militarism, incursions, attacks, assassinations will just ... add to the cycle of violence and counter-violence," said senior negotiator Saeb Erekat in a BBC interview.

That old BS line that Israel responding to having Palestinian rockets fired at it's civilians adds to the "cycle of violence".

Get it JREFers? The Palestinian Authority does nothing to stop terrorists from launching rockets at Israeli civilians but Saeb Erekat - who works for the PA - blames Israel for adding to the cycle of violence and counter-violence by it's response to stop Palestinian rockets being fired into Israel.

This is the type of propoganda the useful idiots eat up and why I remain at JREF to debunk.

 

[webfusion]

One quick follow-up to the IDF stopping the guy with the fancy 10Kg belt:

The one thing that was not mentioned in the litany of PA senior negotiator Saeb Erekat, was the terrible IDF CHECKPOINTS and the horrendous ILLEGAL WALL!

According to the news services report ----

• (The bomber) was riding in a Palestinian taxi when it was stopped for inspection at the impromptu checkpoint, which had been placed about 500 meters from the security fence (aka 'wall') crossing point at Avneh Hefetz.
  
  When the bomber got out of the taxi and was asked by soldiers to raise his shirt, he vanished in a large puff of smoke and fire...

So, I ask again --- What is the solution?

Wouldn't you all like to know? !!!!

=====================================

Mr Swidler, if you are in the mood to see a thread killed, let me do it!!! I can achieve victory if you don't post again in the Kill This Thread thread! -- I've been trying to destroy the darn thing with all sorts of advanced weaponry, to no avail. Roadtoad is driving along over there with a truck using armor plating, and Hawk one & rjh01 think my aim is off.
However, if nobody else posts there until the New Year, I win!

I feel just like the real IDF -- employing all sorts of 'stopping' tactics and still they keep on coming at'cha.

 

[Skeptic]

That old BS line that Israel responding to having Palestinian rockets fired at it's civilians adds to the "cycle of violence"

Come to think of it, "Cycle of Violence" would be a really cool name for a heavy-metal Band. It would be even coolers if its members would be israelies and Palestinians. Stranger things have happened--especially in the middle east, where nothing but strange things seem to happen lately.

 

[webfusion]

reply to post #306

As usual, ZN makes a valid point:

The real danger is the PA allows it to happen. Today the terrorists fire Kassams, maybe tommorow it'll be Katyushas or SA-7s or Stingers...

I was reading an article today, and it cited an interview conducted with an Islamic Jihad leader ----
At the beginning of the week one of the commanders of the Islamic Jihad was interviewed by Shlomi Eldar of Channel 10 News. He analyzed, with sharp clarity, the process of Israeli deterioration. First, he said, we fought with stones, and you indicated with stones you can't beat an army. After you were worn out and did not respond to stones, we started shooting. Then your army promised you'd stop it within a few days. So apparently you couldn't, or didn't want to. Afterward we started the suicide bombings and you claimed they were not strategically dangerous. Then we began shooting the Qassams, and you dismissed their effect, saying 'what can Qassams do?' And now, with improved Qassams we are already firing on Ashkelon.

=================================
for skep -

'Cycle of Violence' -- a REAL Heavy Metal Band in concert!

 

[Mycroft]

That old BS line that Israel responding to having Palestinian rockets fired at it's civilians adds to the "cycle of violence"

Come to think of it, "Cycle of Violence" would be a really cool name for a heavy-metal Band. It would be even coolers if its members would be israelies and Palestinians. Stranger things have happened--especially in the middle east, where nothing but strange things seem to happen lately.

At Little Green Footballs, a pro-Israeli/pro-WOT blog run by a former liberal who underwent a dramatic conservative shift during 9/11, the term "cycle of violence" is used to describe the owners periodic 50 mile bicycle excursions.

 

[webfusion]

pro-WOT

pro-what?

===============================
eta --- nevermind, got it, 'War On Terror'
===============================

Oh, by the way, guess who has now stepped forward and claimed the launch of Katyushas from Lebanon the other day? Postings on an Islamist Web site declared :::

""The lion sons of al Qaeda launched ... a new attack on the Jewish state by firing 10 missiles ..."

 

[Mycroft]

pro-WOT

pro-what?

===============================

WOT = War on Terror. I stop short of calling him a Republican, though he probably is.

 

[Mycroft]

Once again the islamist terrorists send yet another murderer on yet another suicide. This time an IDF officer and three Palestinians were blown to bits by this Islamic Jihad nutjob.

I'd just like to take a moment to point out the significance of the ratios here.

The fact that so many more Palestinians have died in this conflict than have Israelis is often pointed to as evidence that it's the Israelis that are at fault and that the Israelis are not doing enough to preserve innocent Palestinian life.

The problem is that reasoning only holds if you don't look too closely at the individual deaths and realize how many Palestinians die because Palestinian terror organizations place their lives in danger. The simple truth is a Palestinian terror attack is just more likely to kill Palestinians than it is Israelis.