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Idf bs

To sum up the thread so far:

TFT claims the IDF broke international law.

People ask TFT which international law was broken.

TFT shows Youtube videos.

People ask again what international law was broken.

TFT says he doesn't care about laws anyway and calls other posters "Zionists Apologists".
 
Given the inherent difficulties of urban warfare combined with the added challenges presented by Hamas fighting out of uniform (causing potential confusion between combatants and non-combatants) and routinely fighting near civilians and civilian installations, it is to the IDF's credit that far more mistakes were not made nor much greater collateral damage created.

The HAMAS was determined to be using medic and nurse uniforms for its operatives, and using ambulances. Testimony by a Palestinian medical worker and obtained by the IDF revealed how Hamas forced the Red Crescent to cooperate with the combatants.

The IDF probe, conducted by Col. Erez Katz, focused on the targeting of health facilities, vehicles and medical teams. The probe discovered that out of seven medical personnel claimed to have been killed by the IDF, five were actually Hamas operatives, including one who was the nephew of the Hamas health minister. Two were civilians.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/73623/-haniyeh-hid-in-hospital-during-gaza-op-.html
HAMAS top leadership used the Shifa Hospital as their hideout.


Those I'm familiar with have admitted they were never ordered to "murder innocent Pals", but, merely heard rumors of such acts, which, turns out, never occurred.

This has been extensively covered here on JREF.
It has been shown that the hearsay was just that -- hearsay.


Most, if not all, armies, including the US Army, conduct their own internal investigations. Terrorist groups, such as Hamas, are not inclined to do so.

Actually, some statements have come out of Gaza recently indicating the HAMAS leadership has leaerned some lessons and is re-evaluating their performance and tactics, after determining that their operations in the war were deficient in several ways.

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2009/04/hamas-members-ordered-to-stay-in.html
Hamas militants are now under orders in any future conflict with the IDF to stay in uniform even if this makes them more easily targeted in Israeli air strikes.
The HAMAS realized that it was a violation of the Geneva Convention to fight out of uniform, (although it did bring them the advantage of having a few more civilian casualties to show off to the media).
 
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IDF probe: White phosphorus use legal

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239710758789&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

The IDF are known liars and a vile terrorist group. No decent person would take seriously an enquiry this bunch of thugs conducted upon themselves.

What a joke!!

I wonder what kind of reaction I'd get if I informed you that I served in the IDF for 18 months?

ETA: Before this causes a firestorm I haven't served in the IDF, but I am curious as to what his reaction would be if he actually tried talking to someone who did serve.
 
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One of my best friends was in the IDF.
Combat unit.

He has one of those rings with lots of ears on it.







OK, I made that last thing up:D
 
I wonder what kind of reaction I'd get if I informed you that I served in the IDF for 18 months?

ETA: Before this causes a firestorm I haven't served in the IDF, but I am curious as to what his reaction would be if he actually tried talking to someone who did serve.

The IDF are still liars and a terrorist group. They also allow religious nutjobs to spread racist hate leaflets to their soldiers. That's a fact. I would judge individual members based upon their individual behavior. You obviously can't blame every member of the IDF for it's net behavior. And given the conscription not everyoneactually wants to be in it. I bet some peopel are ashamed to be in ithe IDF.

In fact a few Israel Soldiers came forward and spilled the beans about the war crimes.
 
The IDF are still liars and a terrorist group. They also allow religious nutjobs to spread racist hate leaflets to their soldiers. That's a fact. I would judge individual members based upon their individual behavior. You obviously can't blame every member of the IDF for it's net behavior. And given the conscription not everyoneactually wants to be in it. I bet some peopel are ashamed to be in ithe IDF.

In fact a few Israel Soldiers came forward and spilled the beans about the war crimes.

Do you have a link to "a few Israel soldiers" coming forward and spilling the beans about the war crimes? This would be separate from the recent incident of claims of such crimes that turned out to be apocryphal.
 
TFT- Are Hamas and Islamic Jihad...terrorist groups?

Hamas are a democratically elected adminstration which have a sub-group that commits acts of terrorism against Israeli civilians. So yes a terrorist group operates within Hamas

I doubt the Zionist Apologists here would entertain the sons and daughters of Hamas terrorists. But they are no doubt happy to have Tzipi Livni in the Israel government and Rahm Emanual in the US government.

And let's not forget Begin the terrorist who was Israel's PM and ordered the murder of 90 odd British at the King David Hotel


Islamic Jihad in itself isn't a group it just means 'Islamic struggle' - There are Islamic terrorist groups that work under a directive they call Jihad.
 
Please show what is propaganda. Feel free to analyze and report on each point made in that article. I won't hold my breath.

"The murderous assault on Gaza" is one example of propaganda. I would need to post the entire contents of the page to illustrate add'l propaganda.
 
http://www.apacheclips.com/media/5535/Hamas_in_3D/

Watch this.
Operation "cast lead" was probably the most targetted removal of enemy personnel within a civilian setting ( a setting chosen by Hamas) , while minimizing civilian casualties, in the history of warfare.
Prove me wrong, by producing evidence of a better attempt at avoiding civilian deaths from military action in built up areas?
 
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Islamic Jihad in itself isn't a group it just means 'Islamic struggle'

Oh Really?

The Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) is an Islamic, Palestinian nationalist organization that violently opposes the existence of Israel. Designated as a U.S. State Department terrorist organization in 1997, the PIJ targets Israeli civilian and military personnel in its commitment to the creation of an Islamic regime in “all of historic Palestine,” according to the State Department’s 2006 Country Report on terrorism. The PIJ, unlike Fatah or Hamas, does not participate in the political process.

When did the Palestinian Islamic Jihad emerge?

The founders of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fathi Shaqaqi and Abd al-Aziz Awda, were students in Egypt and members of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood until the late 1970s when they decided that the brotherhood was becoming too moderate and insufficiently committed to the Palestinian cause. The PIJ emerged as a separate entity committed to the militant destruction of Israel and the reestablishment of a sovereign Palestinian state. The PIJ, despite being a Sunni group, took inspiration from revolutionary, theocratic Shia ideals espoused during the 1979 Iranian Revolution that established an Islamic regime.

What are the goals of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad?

The Palestinian Islamic Jihad wants to reestablish a sovereign, Islamic Palestinian state with the geographic borders of the pre-1948 mandate Palestine. The PIJ advocates the destruction of Israel through violent means; it approaches the Arab-Israeli conflict as an ideological war, not a territorial dispute. PIJ members see violence as the only way to remove Israel from the Middle East map and reject any two-state arrangement in which Israel and Palestine coexist.

The PIJ, unlike other Palestinian separatist groups, refuses to negotiate or engage in the diplomatic process. It does not seek political representation within the Palestinian Authority. The PIJ is also accused of attempting to hinder the efforts of the 1993 Oslo Accords by launching several terrorist attacks on Israeli targets.

Does the Palestinian Islamic Jihad have any state sponsors?

Yes. According to the U.S. State Department, Iran funds most of the PIJ budget. The United States also accuses Syria of providing a “safe haven” for the group, and allowing PIJ headquarters to remain in Damascus.

How does the PIJ differ from Hamas?

The PIJ is a rival militant group, often vying for the support of the same Palestinians. However, the PIJ offers no social services, nor does it intend to engage in any form of diplomatic dialogue with Israel. Much smaller than Hamas, PIJ members sanctify the land because of its historical significance to Islam and are fully committed to the group’s platform of destroying the state of Israel through violent means.

Who are the leaders of Palestinian Islamic Jihad?

Crisis Guide: The Israeli-PalestinianFathi Shaqaqi moved from Gaza to Egypt to study medicine and became active with the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. He eventually denounced the organization because of its increasing moderation and left with PIJ’s longtime spiritual leader, Abd al-Aziz Awda. Shaqaqi moved across the Middle East, going where exile took him, before finally settling in Damascus under Syrian protection. Shaqaqi remained the head of the organization until his 1995 death in Malta, allegedly at the hands of Israeli agents, according to Military.com. He was replaced by Ramadan Abdallah Shallah, a British-educated Palestinian, who taught Middle Eastern courses at the University of South Florida from 1990 to 1995.

Eight leaders of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad were indicted by federal authorities in 2003 on fifty charges, while only one, Sami al-Arian, was arrested and sent to trial. Al-Arian has denied (CNN) having links to terrorism.

What is the history of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad?

After splitting from the Muslim Brotherhood in the late 1970s, Shaqaqi and Awda operated the PIJ from Egypt until 1981, when the Egyptian government exiled the group to Gaza following the assassination of President Anwar Sadat. The PIJ remained in Gaza until 1987, when the group was exiled to Lebanon. While in Lebanon, the PIJ leadership cultivated a relationship with Hezbollah and received training from the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. In 1989 Shaqaqi moved the official headquarters to Damascus, where it remains, although a small contingent of leaders are still present in Lebanon, according to the State Department. The continued presence in South Lebanon allowed the PIJ and Hezbollah to launch joint attacks in the 1990s.

Currently, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad is a small, highly secretive organization that operates underground with less than 1,000 members and limited popular support. The 2003 U.S. indictment of eight senior members of the group diminished its strength.

What type of attacks does it launch?

The PIJ often carries out suicide bombings that target civilians and military personnel, although the frequency of attacks inside Israeli territory has decreased since the construction of security barriers around Gaza. There have been no direct attacks on U.S. properties or citizens—some have died in attacks—although the PIJ threatened to attack the U.S. embassy if it was relocated to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv. The following is an abbreviated list of attacks that have been claimed by the PIJ the over the years:

* An August 1987 shooting killed the commander of the Israeli military police in the Gaza Strip;
* A December 1993 shooting killed Israeli reservist David Mashrati aboard a bus;
* An April 1994 car bomb killed nine people and injured fifty aboard a public bus;
* A January 1995 a suicide bomb killed eighteen soldiers and one civilian near Netanya;
* A March 1996 suicide bomb at a Tel Aviv shopping mall killed thirteen and injured seventy five more;
* A June 2001 suicide bomb killed twenty-one people in a Tel Aviv nightclub;
* A June 2002 suicide attack at the Meggido Junction killed eighteen and injured fifty;
* An October 2003 suicide bomb at a Haifa restaurant killed twenty-two and injured sixty;
* An October 2005 bomb at a Hadera market killed five people;
* An April 2006 suicide attack in Tel Aviv killed eleven;
* A January 2007 suicide attack at an Eliat bakery killed three. Both the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the PIJ claim responsibility.
 
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Please show what is propaganda. Feel free to analyze and report on each point made in that article. I won't hold my breath.

I'll do it.

"Israeli citizens have been under the threat of daily attack from Gaza for years."
Palestinians have been under harsh Israeli occupation for 60 years

The old two wrongs make a right fallacy, apparently in the eyes of this guy any sort of occupation (and I won't argue the validity of his claim concerning occupations) is immediate justification for Hamas to target Israeli civilians, use children as human shields, and set up artillery near UN safety zones, schools, and hospitals knowing the IDF will be forced to retaliate. Anything for the resistance right?

"Only this week hundreds of missiles and mortars shells were fired at Israeli civilian communities."
Only one in 500 Qassam rockets causes a fatality. How many thousands of Israeli bombs, missiles, rockets, grenades and tank-shells have been blasted into the crowded city and towns of the Gaza Strip by Israel’s high-tech weaponry?

He ignores the point that missiles and mortar shells are being fired into Israel and usually at civilians and instead goes on to basically say "well the death-toll isn't equal so it isn't justified". And sadly this is an argument I see alot from the anti-Israeli, pro-Hamas groups. Apparently they think war needs to be nice and symmetrical and Israel should only seek to kill an equal number of people that Hamas kills each day. Which is a, frankly, insipid idea especially when you consider that Hamas really doesn't give a crap about their citizens.

Futhermore, Israel does typically have more high-tech weaponry which usually is a given that it will at least be more accurate. Hamas is firing indirect weapons indiscriminately anywhere they can, usually deliberately targetting civilians. This tells me that Hamas doesn't care if they hit an Israeli patrol or an orphanage, a dead Jew is a dead Jew to them.

"Until now we have shown restraint. But today there is no other option than a military operation."
The only legitimate option for Israel is to end the occupation and withdraw behind its 1967 border, as required under international law and UN resolution. Israel has been killing Palestinians at the rate of 8 to 1 since 2000, and children at the rate of nearly 12 to 1 (B’Tselem figures). This is somebody’s idea of restraint?

Israel has made territorial concessions to nations who have agreed to peace. Since 1967 they've withdrawn from both the Sinai and the Golan Heights. Evidently this man believes that these problems can be solved overnight, as if there weren't any issues until after Israel claimed these territories. I don't trust B'Tselem's figures for that matter, something about including combantants in with civilian causualties seems off with me. Their figures including minors killed by Israelis also doesn't factor in enemy combantants using those children as shields. I suspect their numbers would be much lower if they stopped including children forced to be human shields and would also cease referring to armed enemy conbatants as civilians just because they were never given the opportunity to fire their weapons.

"We need to protect our citizens from attack through a military response against the terror infrastructure in Gaza."
Self defence is not a right exclusive to Israel. Palestinians have an equal right to protect their citizens from the terror tactics of Israel.

There is no evidence that the Israeli government engages in terrorism against the Palestinians, and if there is e did not cite any. There is a wealth of evidence, however, suggesting that Hamas engages in terrorism or in the least permits terrorism against Israel.

"Israel left Gaza in order to create an opportunity for peace."
Israel never left Gaza. It still occupies Gaza's airspace and coastal waters and controls all entrances and exits.

Sounds like standard procedure for leaving a previously hostile area known for its terrorist acts.

"In return, the Hamas terror organization took control of Gaza and is using its citizens as cover while it deliberately targets Israeli communities and denies any chance for peace."
Hamas was voted into power as the legitimate government of Palestine. Israel chose not to accept the people's choice, which amounted to a denial of their human rights, and immediately set about obliterating it.

This is a red herring and a blatant lie. Earlier he admitted Hamas was firing rockets into Israel and now he is pretending otherwise so claiming this is simply because Israel dislikes the government voted in power doesn't follow. This also ignores the perfectly legitimate point that Hamas is using its own civilians as cover!

"We have tried everything to reach calm without using force. We agreed to a truce through Egypt that was violated by Hamas, which continued to target Israel, hold Gilad Shalit and build up its arms."
Try talking. The Israelis' ongoing siege and economic blockade, begun shortly after Hamas was elected early in 2006, was never going to generate calm. And why is Shalit considered more important than the 9,000 Palestinians abducted and held prisoner by Israel? As soon as a Hamas government was formed Israeli troops arrested 8 Hamas ministers and 20 other parliamentarians, making the work of government impossible.

This begs the question why did Israel do those things? This is dishonest reporting and clearly being spun to make the Israelis look as bad as possible by oversimplifying the issues and painting everything as black and white.

"Israel continues to act to prevent humanitarian crisis and to minimize harm to Palestinian civilians."
Every agency operating in Gaza has warned of the deepening humanitarian crisis and protested about the starvation and suffering, especially of children many of whom show evidence of stunted growth.

There is a simple solution to this, stop mortar and missile attacks into Israel and agree to peace talks. Israel isn't going to agree to anything so long as Hamas is launching rockets into Israel, and as much as I hate to say it Gaza brought this on themselves when they voted for war.

"The responsibility for harm to civilians lies with Hamas."
Not according to the Fourth Geneva Convention

I'm pretty sure the Geneva Convention also mentions using children as shields, I think they would have frowned upon that. This is too broad a statement to really respond to anyways.

"Hamas is a terrorist organization, supported by Iran, that does not represent the legitimate national interests of the Palestinian people but a radical Islamist agenda that seeks to deny peace for the peoples of this region."
Hamas was the popular choice of Palestinians at the last election. It is entitled under international law to take up arms against an illegal occupier and invader. If it is supported by Iran, so what? Israel receives mega-support from the US. When it comes to terror, it is Israel's conduct which fits the US definition of terrorism so perfectly - see Bush's Executive Order 13224, Section 3 -http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/terror/terror.pdf

This guy has a problem with vague statements. Apparently he seems to think democracy is a magic shield against terrorism and because Hamas was democratically elected it could not possibly be a terrorist group. As if people can't vote for terrorism. They have every right to take up arms against invaders, they don't have a right to fire on civilians or take children as shields.

I'll have to cut this short as I don't have enough time right now to comment on every part of the article.
 
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The only legitimate option for Israel is to end the occupation and withdraw behind its 1967 border, as required under international law and UN resolution.

There are no international laws nor UN resolutions requiring Israel to withdraw from the West Bank, nor Gaza, for that matter, giving Israel another "legitimate" option, that of remaining in the West Bank.
 
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