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Ideomotor and the ouija board

If I understand your experiment correctly, you want to see if your subconcious is connect to your movement much like the way we dream. If I have that right, then I think what Skeptical Greg said is very big:

HeyLeroy:
Your friend blindfolds you....
mbush1us said:
This wouldn't work, I've already tried it just for fun. ......

There is a clue there somewhere....

I could be completely wrong, but it would seem to me that your mind is anxious to see the outcome of your experiment.

Kind of like what happens to a baseball player when he anxious to see if he got a hit as he is starting his swing at the ball. In that split second he gets himself confused and distracted. Usually when a batter does that, he completely misses the ball.

So maybe your are so anxious to see the results, your mind is making a descion as to what the result will be without realizing it.
 
Interesting. I can control the "actors" and actions in my lucid dreams; I thought this was quite common. My first experience of the phenonmenon was the sudden thought, "This is such a boring dream--I wish it was about ___" and the dream shifted immediately for me.

No you're right and I think it is common. It's especially easy to control scenery and events. In my experience, it's the characters that so often seem to have a mind of their own. I've read of people who claim they can talk to their spirit guides and deceased loved ones in the lucid dream state, so I assume they must have a sense that their dream characters are independent from themselves.

I've just had way more of these experiences than is probably average; up to 2-3 times a week for a few years. Some of them felt like "out-of-body" experiences at the time, different in the way they started. Occasionally I had sleep paralysis. Happily, I don't have any of it much anymore, and I say good riddance. They weren't as much fun for me as they seem to be for other people! But I did learn a lot about my own mind and the lucid dream state.
 
When I was experimenting with the Ouija board, what it said never related to my dreams or daydreams either. I don't think it necessarily follows that it would. I'm talking specifically about lucid dreaming, which is much different from ordinary dreaming in that you really feel you are interacting with real people, and the main point is that lucid dream characters often say and do unexpected things. They do not necessarily do what I will them to do and seem to have minds of their own. Most lucid dreamers say the same thing, and I think that's partly why there's so much "woo" around lucid dreaming, with people believing they are really interacting with entities on another dimension.

How this relates to Ouija - I just suspect there may be a similar dynamic at play, where the same part of our minds capable of creating lucid dream characters that seem to have opinions and characters all their own can also create characters that will communicate through a board with us.

I was really good at working the Ouija board, too. I could even make it work by myself, and I was convinced it wasn't me moving it. I really believed back then that I could contact the spirit world with it, including spirit guides, which I had been taught were all-knowing. That made me stick with it for a long time, and in hindsight all I can say is it was frustrating never to get any sort of information out of it that I didn't already know, or as you say, what I did get that seemed predictive never happened. Of course, I had the same experience with lucid dreaming.

I wonder if maybe our minds will draw on whatever memories are stored there to create the lucid dreaming world, and maybe the material that comes through with a Ouija board too.


I understand your point now. I haven't ever had a lucid dream so I can't compare the two, but I suspect you're right. It is just very odd and I can see how someone would be fooled (especially if they want it to be paranormal). The responses really do seem to come from a separate mind even though I consciously know that they don't. The inability for the responses to even acknowledge this and the continued attempts to convince me otherwise is weird too.

I've thought more on the connection between what the responses are and my subconscious (or whatever part of my brain/mind is providing the answers) and if I consider what is said it does relate in some way to either what I want to be or what I would expect it to be although in many cases it is very convoluted or loose and not at all obvious.

The difference in the way the planchette feels or moves is entirely subjective of course (I have no way of actually testing if this is true or not) and the perception is most likely due to what I expect more than anything else.
 
If I understand your experiment correctly, you want to see if your subconcious is connect to your movement much like the way we dream. If I have that right, then I think what Skeptical Greg said is very big:



I could be completely wrong, but it would seem to me that your mind is anxious to see the outcome of your experiment.

Kind of like what happens to a baseball player when he anxious to see if he got a hit as he is starting his swing at the ball. In that split second he gets himself confused and distracted. Usually when a batter does that, he completely misses the ball.

So maybe your are so anxious to see the results, your mind is making a descion as to what the result will be without realizing it.

I guess I'm confused on the blindfolding part and how that would relate to my subconscious. I can see doing it as a test if I was suggesting that the responses are paranormal since presumably the entity or whatever the responder is would not require me to see the board to correctly indicate the letters (which is why I did the test initially, just covering all the bases like a good skeptic). However, I'm not claiming this and my subconscious would have to use what I see as much as my conscious mind would or so I would presume. I'm not even claiming it is my subconscious, that's just the best explanation I can come up with so far. It's possible that our conscious mind can compartmentalize to this degree and that's where the responses are coming from.

In any case I don't think I have any real anxiety over the results (could be wrong) I'm doing it more for fun (it's especially entertaining to see the various confabulations my mind is apparently able to come up with and the various reactions to my nonbelief) than anything else. Perhaps the entertainment value alone is enough to cause the responses in the first place. It is a great way to see just how easy it could be for someone to be fooled and absolutely convinced in it being paranormal especially if they don't really scrutinize the veracity of the responses.
 
I've been trying to find a study (which may not exist, but it sounds like something someone would try) looking at the brain via FMRI to see if there is a physical difference in the brain between when a participant consciously moves the planchette and when the participant does not believe they are moving the planchette consciously. So far no luck, mostly the studies have been focused on the Ideomotor apraxia disorder (which is far more important anyway).
 
I wonder if automatic writng would work for you too, mbush1us?
That would be a lot quicker and you would have a record of what you had said.
 
I wonder if automatic writng would work for you too, mbush1us?
That would be a lot quicker and you would have a record of what you had said.

I don't know if it would or not, but the board is pretty fast (it's not the slow creeping movement you might think of with a ouija board).
 
I guess I'm confused on the blindfolding part and how that would relate to my subconscious. I can see doing it as a test if I was suggesting that the responses are paranormal since presumably the entity or whatever the responder is would not require me to see the board to correctly indicate the letters (which is why I did the test initially, just covering all the bases like a good skeptic). However, I'm not claiming this and my subconscious would have to use what I see as much as my conscious mind would or so I would presume. I'm not even claiming it is my subconscious, that's just the best explanation I can come up with so far. It's possible that our conscious mind can compartmentalize to this degree and that's where the responses are coming from.

In any case I don't think I have any real anxiety over the results (could be wrong) I'm doing it more for fun (it's especially entertaining to see the various confabulations my mind is apparently able to come up with and the various reactions to my nonbelief) than anything else. Perhaps the entertainment value alone is enough to cause the responses in the first place. It is a great way to see just how easy it could be for someone to be fooled and absolutely convinced in it being paranormal especially if they don't really scrutinize the veracity of the responses.


I'm sorry, I'm not being clear, and to be honest, I don't quite grasp what you are trying to convey. (I understand you're not suggesting something supernatural).

Neither am I. What I'm suggesting is anticipation. That feeling of "Oh boy, what will it be?" and getting so anxious that your mind creates something at the spur of the moment without you realizing it.

Another example is someone testing some kind of theory, and is so anxious to see the result, that she/he, without realizing it, pushes the tester to the desired result.

In this case, you don't know what you want as a result, but the desire for something to happen is still there, so your mind pushes it to...something weird that you know. It's not anxiety, it's anticipation.

Once blindfolded, you can't do that because you can't see where the thing is going.

....does that help explain what I mean?
 
Ok, I understand your point now. Yeah that could very well be it, although the blindfold would only work if I hadn't used a specific board before and the layout was different than the one I was used to (otherwise I could do a fair approximation just based on memory). I still can't figure out a way to actually tell which part of my mind is actually producing the responses which is what I'm really interested in given the degree of confabulation that goes on.

I guess that my real point is that if skeptics want folks who believe in the ouija board and other ideomotor responses to understand what is really going on, a clearer explanation on how the responses can seem so real has to be addressed. I KNOW it's not paranormal and yet it is still very weird to me so someone prone to belief is going to find it that much more convincing.
 
As for articles about the use of fmri to measure the "distance" between processing in the neocortex and the conscious intention to act, check out: scienceagogo.com re: Mind Reading. 60 Minutes did a whole piece on similar experiments earlier this year. I'll bet Steve Novella has covered this on his site as well.
 
All bolding mine:

Ok, I understand your point now. Yeah that could very well be it, although the blindfold would only work if I hadn't used a specific board before and the layout was different than the one I was used to (otherwise I could do a fair approximation just based on memory). I still can't figure out a way to actually tell which part of my mind is actually producing the responses which is what I'm really interested in given the degree of confabulation that goes on.

I guess that my real point is that if skeptics want folks who believe in the ouija board and other ideomotor responses to understand what is really going on, a clearer explanation on how the responses can seem so real has to be addressed. I KNOW it's not paranormal and yet it is still very weird to me so someone prone to belief is going to find it that much more convincing.


Have a friend present.

Your friend blindfolds you or, better yet, you face a panel through which your hands protrude and you have no way of seeing the board. Your friend presents the ouija board to you with either the letters facing you, or the board turned 180 degrees (the letters are upside-down, the yes/no are not where you expect them to be, etc.). You have no way of knowing whether the board is oriented properly or not.

Your friend then logs your answers to your questions.

ETA: I only have a few minutes to respond; maybe others can help refine a simple protocol.

Something like this:
Language WARNING: Penn and Teller ********

If you don't want to watch the whole clip, go to about 4:00 in.
 
Ok, I understand your point now. Yeah that could very well be it, although the blindfold would only work if I hadn't used a specific board before and the layout was different than the one I was used to (otherwise I could do a fair approximation just based on memory). I still can't figure out a way to actually tell which part of my mind is actually producing the responses which is what I'm really interested in given the degree of confabulation that goes on.

I guess that my real point is that if skeptics want folks who believe in the ouija board and other ideomotor responses to understand what is really going on, a clearer explanation on how the responses can seem so real has to be addressed. I KNOW it's not paranormal and yet it is still very weird to me so someone prone to belief is going to find it that much more convincing.

I think understand what you're driving at. Let me take a stab at restating your point and giving a possible answer.

The typical explanation of the ideomotor is what we see in Wiki:
The ideomotor effect is a psychological phenomenon wherein a subject makes motions unconsciously. As in reflexive responses to pain, the body sometimes reacts reflexively to ideas alone without the person consciously deciding to take action

When it comes to dowsing for water, we tend to say that the person may be aware subconsciously that a certain spot is likely to have water (or consciously so, like in the "open" test before a controlled test), so their subconscious causes the movements that pinpoint the water. Some of us argue that in many parts of the country, it's hard to dig and not find water. What you seem to be asking is, "Fine, but why did the dowser pick that spot instead of some other?"

Similarly on a Ouija board, one might ask, "Will I be rich someday?" If they spell out "yes" then we simply conclude that most people want to be rich, so naturally they spell out yes. If I understand you correctly, you're saying, "Fine, what if they spell out 'pickle' or something else nonsensical? Why?"

I think the explanation is rather simple. We know the body can make these movements absent of conscious will. In the case of a Ouija board, our conscious knows where the letters are, so it only makes sense to move it to some letter. Let's just say on the first move it goes to the letter P. Does there need to be any other reason for it to be a P other than it's a letter? I don't think so. The subconscious "instruction" so to speak was to pick a letter. With the exception of a few letters, one is just as good as the next when it comes to forming words, which is the ultimate subconscious goal.

The subsequent letters could then be the subconscious picking a letter that might reasonably come next. With a P, a vowel is likely to come next as is an H, L, and R. Other letters like D and X don't make sense. So let's say you pick an I just because it makes sense subconsciously as a second letter. Again, follow the same basic logic of spelling words, only in this case a vowel is less likely but a C offers a good path leading to pic, pica, picante, Picasso, and so forth. Lather, rinse, repeat.

In the water dowsing scenario, there could be any number of factors triggering the movement. Maybe you're just tired or bored and want to be done. Maybe something attracts your attention subconciously. Maybe you just notice a slight movement from just walking around and your subconscious decides to run with it.

We make thousands of little movements all day long without conscious input or rational explanations. The only difference with the ideomotor effect is that we have visual feedback. That's why you only spell "pickle" on a board where you know where the letters are.

If you need a more in-depth explanation, I am available as a "life coach" for $100 per hour. I'm sure with a few dozen sessions we can get to the bottom of why you spell out certain things. :p
 
I can see where you're coming from and as a skeptic I can accept that this is probably what's happening even though the perception is far more complex - we're talking about fast, complete and often (though not always in my experience) coherent conversations, not simple one or two word responses - it really is like having a regular conversation with another person. On to my next point.

Someone who is a bit more credulous (and I don't think it would take much given just HOW convincing the response is) may think that this explanation isn't satisfactory for what they are experiencing. For instance (and ex-minister may be able to back me up here), given that the responses are often not nonsensical at all (like pickle in your example) and appear very complex and thought out (though perhaps somewhat childlike in their overall simplicity - not to be confused with simpleminded) telling them that it is a "reflex" is probably not going to convince them. In fact, it may tend to further convince them that their personal experience is even more special and real (especially if they are not requiring any kind of evidence of external sentience and the responses can rationalize this need away fairly easily). In other words, it would be very easy to tell oneself that what you are experiencing can not be reflex or even subconcious in the way described given the quality of their interactions hence they personally must be special and not like all the others. I suspect out of body experiences may fall in the same category for the same reasons. I just think that as skeptics it's important to recognize just how convincing these experiences can be and not expect the explanation of ideomotor response or subconscious mind to be enough all by themselves (even if in reality that is exactly all it is). In fact, to the person caught up in it, it may appear that the skeptic doesn't fully understand what exactly is being described and are therefore easily dismissed. Sure we can always fall back to the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and be satisfied that we aren't falling for it and move on, but in their mind this may be extraordinary evidence just by it's very convincing nature. Not every skeptic is going to care, but I guess having experienced it myself I can see (but not agree with) their point of view and wish there were an argument that more fully responded to the complex nature of the experience without seeming to miss their point.

Sorry if that was rambling and not to the point, it's still early here and I'm not sure my brain is fully engaged yet. :)
 
Hmmmm

I would like to bet at this point that Mbush1us is not all that he/she claims to be.

I would bet that within the next 100 posts or so, he/she will 'come out' as a true believer.
 
All I have to say about ouija boards is that I refuse to believe that the portal to the Other World is made by Milton Bradley.
 
Hmmmm

I would like to bet at this point that Mbush1us is not all that he/she claims to be.

I would bet that within the next 100 posts or so, he/she will 'come out' as a true believer.

I was afraid someone would assume this, and I'm absolutely NOT a believer though I can see how someone could suspect this and didn't know how to avoid it. :(

I just don't know how to explain the experience (and I hate to use the word experience because that may carry connotations that I don't intend, but I don't know a better term) any differently than I am - it is what it is and is purely anecdotal but I've tried to be as honest as possible about it. That does not make me a believer anymore than assuming that someone who can describe the way an out of body experience "feels" believes they are actually leaving their body. To suspect me based on the fact that I'm attempting to fully describe the perception supposes that a real skeptic is somehow immune to the neurological experience altogether and should not be able to do so. At least as far as I'm concerned that has not been the case. I am interested in the neurological aspects of it and the explanation should at least take into account all the types of responses and not be based on incorrect assumptions or the simplest possible experience.

I'm not arguing that the explanations offered aren't exactly what is happening--I do think that it is all in my own mind and is ideomotor response, it's obvious to me that it is. I'm just trying to be clear that the experience is far more complex than is perhaps supposed.

My only point now is that it I can see how it may not be obvious to a believer that this is really just a reflex. My only concern is that by not at least trying to understand the full nature of the experience from a believer's point of view, a skeptic may not be able to provide the best argument against it. I'm certainly not suggesting that a skeptic should entertain the notion that it is paranormal.
 
All I have to say about ouija boards is that I refuse to believe that the portal to the Other World is made by Milton Bradley.

Me either. For what it's worth, I just use a sheet of paper with the alphabet and numbers on it not an actual ouija board from Milton/Bradley. Apparently my brain at least doesn't need all the spiritual trappings in order to confabulate. :)
 
Skeptical Greg said:
HeyLeroy:
Your friend blindfolds you....

This wouldn't work, I've already tried it just for fun. .......

There is a clue there somewhere....

Guys! He said in his OP that he knows it's just ideomotor. That means he knew at the start this sort of thing would produce nothing. What he's probing with the Ouija board is what his subconcious does through the ideomotor effect.

Telling him that there is no supernatual component and providing protocols to eliminate the ideomotor effect is not useful for his case.
 

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