Ideomotor and the ouija board

mbush1us

New Blood
M
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Hi all,

I've been primarily a lurker for awhile now, but thought you all might get a kick out of an experiment I've been undertaking (or not). I have a fairly strong ideomotor response and was curious to try something out with a "ouija" board (I can get that little planchette to move all over the place and it "feels" completely different than when I consciously do it) just to see what results I would get. I'm a complete skeptic when it comes to this as I am with dowsing which like lots of folks I can "do" too (or at least I used to be able to, I haven't tried it in a long time) though I can easily see how it could fool someone. However, I do want to try to figure out where the "information" comes from since it appears to mostly be out of the blue (meaning often not at all what I'm thinking at the time or expecting). I'm guessing it's just self-delusion and confabulation, but am wondering if there is a subconcious component also. By the way the board is homemade, it makes no difference in the response either way.

What I've discovered so far is the following:

1. The board can provide no proof by facts - by which I mean it can provide no verifiable facts that are not something I either already know consciously or have had contact with before and may have forgotten. In fact, I now have this as a primary requirement for any discussions and so far the response is to either an attempt to distract, disassemble, or avoid. If pressed the response is that the board can't provide proof (pretty telling). For now, the discussion stops here.

2. The board attempts to provide information on the future as proof, but so far nothing predicted has come true (or even close). I require very specific predictions - nothing vague or ambiguous is accepted.

3. The board always sets up two responders, one "good" and one "evil". The good one is always warning me about the bad one and the bad one is always trying to upset me (not working). In both cases their behavior and responses are childlike and trite. Things like "God is love" or referring to the devil and evil (I'm an atheist so these always kill me). Their names are even obviously from my own head - the good is called "Volume" probably because I had my ipod too loud when "it" gave it's name and the bad one is "X", likely based on my previous enjoyment of the x-files. Not even imaginative which probably says something about me. The responses are also sometimes either grammatically incorrect or misspelled (both mistakes I wouldn't conciously make so I suspect it is intended to be part of the confabulation). Often when pushed on something that I know it can't provide the response devolves into nonsense.

I know this is completely anecdotal and certainly nothing new, but I am curious if any of you can think of anything else I can try just to see what the response is and in your views on the subconscious aspect.
 
ask volume if its homosexual and then ask X if it fancies volume
;)
 
You're pushing it around by yourself?

And you refer to the "Board" as giving you answers?

Pretty sure you have strayed from ideomotor and into self-delusion.
 
I'm sure I'm pushing it around myself - I just meant there is a distinct difference in feel from when I consciously do it. I referred to the board only as a means of indicating a response I didn't mean the actual board was responding. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm sure there is self-delusion at work too, only I'm not actually believing it consciously which is what has intrigued me. I absolutely do NOT believe I'm talking to anything or any one.
 
Hi and welcome.

I'm not clear what it is exactly you are trying to establish. Are you just wondering if there is a subconscious aspect involved?

The ideomotor effect is by definition related to unconscious movements, so the answer to that would have to be yes.

In essence, this is you communicating with you, as you say. So any questions you come up with might give you some insight into your own mind, for better or worse, but I'm not sure of what further value that would be.

If you were trying to test the board to see whether there was really anything supernatural involved, that would be different, but you've already said you don't believe that. I'm assuming you were open to that possibility at the start or you wouldn't have tried asking for predictions with the requirement that they provide specific information or information you didn't know yourself.

Based on my own experiences with the Ouija board, pendulums and such things, I suspect much of what we get is based on our underlying expectations, even if it's sort of an unconscious expectation. For example, we may hope for an answer from the spirit world and even think consciously that we're open to it, but deep down we basically doubt it. Or maybe we've heard horror stories from other people so we expect bad spirits to show up and we get spooky or mixed messages. Personally, I think lucid dreams work along these same lines, with what we think we want to do sometimes replaced by something we fear instead. The lucid dream characters we create (again, in a lucid dream they seem quite real and we aren't aware that we are creating them) can be disorganized and strange or organized and intelligent, and the same can be true with the us that we meet through a Ouija board. Again, all just speculation on my part - feel free to take with grain of salt.
 
I was given an Ouiji board when I was about 13. I wasn't really a skeptic then, though I think the roots were there. I tried it by myself and it didn't do a damn thing. I tried it with a friend, and it started working... at spelling out what my friend was telling it to (including misspellings). I thought, "This is the most useless toy ever", and gave it away to my friend.
 
With lots and lots of practice, I got to the point where I could make Tarot cards subject to the same ideomotor effect + subconscious wishes and fears.

Once I realized what was going on (by tracking specific predictions that never "came true" better than the rate of chance), it was part of the beginning of the end of woo for me.
 
I guess I'm curious on the subconscious aspect (not so much the paranormal) as the responses do seem sentient albeit childlike which would suggest some conscious involvement. I could be wrong though and the subconscious mind could provide actual responses which would be interesting in and of itself (especially given that the nature of the responses are generally not what my conscious ones would be - the whole god/devil aspect for instance). I would guess that the responses say something about what's going on under the surface in my mind however surprising. The thing that is throwing me is that the responses are not predicted or even in my conscious mind at the time they are spelled out. In other words, I don't know what will be spelled out either before or during.

As for the paranormal aspect - I haven't experienced anything that would even suggest this. The proof request that I now use is just for curiosity sake more than anything. I don't expect it to ever be fulfilled.
 
Tricky said:
I was given an Ouiji board when I was about 13. I wasn't really a skeptic then, though I think the roots were there. I tried it by myself and it didn't do a damn thing. I tried it with a friend, and it started working... at spelling out what my friend was telling it to (including misspellings). I thought, "This is the most useless toy ever", and gave it away to my friend.
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I'm not sure if everyone can get the response to work or maybe it takes practice. If I'm doing it with someone else I can easily get the board to spell out what I want it to say, but that's not what I'm describing here - there is a difference between the two kinds of responses for me. Again, I'm not suggesting that there is anything paranormal going on, I'm just trying to figure out why there is a difference and where the second mentally comes from.

Edited to say that I do NOT use the board with anyone else or for any kind of gain - it was a cool parlor trick when I was a kid at a sleepover nothing more.
 
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Do you find that your Ouija sessions bring up similar images and/or themes as your dreams and daydreams? That would tend to suggest that the answer to their origins lies, as ExMinister discussed, in your subconscious.
 
blue sock monkey said:
Do you find that your Ouija sessions bring up similar images and/or themes as your dreams and daydreams? That would tend to suggest that the answer to their origins lies, as ExMinister discussed, in your subconscious.
Click to expand...

Not really which is why I'm a bit thrown. Often the responses don't seem to have any connection to me or my beliefs at all - or at least what I believe those to be - maybe that's the disconnect. Perhaps my conscious mind is the deception :)
 
This is an interesting little experiment. We know why people self-delude when it comes to woo, and we know about the ideomotor response. The Ouija board is a perfect way see both working.

The fact that you are still getting answers, even from "personalities" when you consciously know what is happening is a bit fascinating. I would have assumed that the board would not respond. Have you kept any notes? Can you point to specific subconscious results?

At this point, it is only a single experiment that would be very difficult to repeat since you need another skeptic who could suspend disbelief. But I wish this information had been out there when I was a teen. The idea that I was doing it and could track my own subconscious responses would have been far more interesting than the usual "supernatural" blather. I would have been all over that experiment and my stupid Ouija board wouldn't have been a waste of money.
 
Now I'm wondering if the responses could be subconscious connections to my childhood. For instance the responses often refer to god/good or devil/evil . While I've been an atheist for a long time (many years) I was raised Catholic (though not in a strict sense). The responses do tend to be simplistic and on a childlike level which would jive with that time and age of my life. Some of the other topics I can't recall ever really having thought about, but I may have when I was younger and just don't remember. They aren't anything really important or somehow profound so I'm not sure why I would have held onto them but who knows why we keep what we do. If so, it would be a facinating way to look into one's subconscious but I don't know how I could go about actually proving that that is what it is.
 
bookitty said:
This is an interesting little experiment. We know why people self-delude when it comes to woo, and we know about the ideomotor response. The Ouija board is a perfect way see both working.

The fact that you are still getting answers, even from "personalities" when you consciously know what is happening is a bit fascinating. I would have assumed that the board would not respond. Have you kept any notes? Can you point to specific subconscious results?

At this point, it is only a single experiment that would be very difficult to repeat since you need another skeptic who could suspend disbelief. But I wish this information had been out there when I was a teen. The idea that I was doing it and could track my own subconscious responses would have been far more interesting than the usual "supernatural" blather. I would have been all over that experiment and my stupid Ouija board wouldn't have been a waste of money.
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Yeah it is kind of interesting from that point of view. However, apparently the subconscious mind doesn't give in so easily and it is still trying to persuade me that it is something else (hence my request for proof, that seems to stump it). It's really odd and in a way amusing to see the struggle to convince me (I know that seems weird, but it is what it is) which suggests some kind of disconnect from my conscious mind.

It would be very interesting and fun to do this with another skeptic but unfortunately I don't know any in the area I now live.
 
Have a friend present.

Your friend blindfolds you or, better yet, you face a panel through which your hands protrude and you have no way of seeing the board. Your friend presents the ouija board to you with either the letters facing you, or the board turned 180 degrees (the letters are upside-down, the yes/no are not where you expect them to be, etc.). You have no way of knowing whether the board is oriented properly or not.

Your friend then logs your answers to your questions.

ETA: I only have a few minutes to respond; maybe others can help refine a simple protocol.
 
HeyLeroy said:
Have a friend present.

Your friend blindfolds you or, better yet, you face a panel through which your hands protrude and you have no way of seeing the board. Your friend presents the ouija board to you with either the letters facing you, or the board turned 180 degrees (the letters are upside-down, the yes/no are not where you expect them to be, etc.). You have no way of knowing whether the board is oriented properly or not.

Your friend then logs your answers to your questions.

ETA: I only have a few minutes to respond; maybe others can help refine a simple protocol.
Click to expand...

This wouldn't work, I've already tried it just for fun. I'm not claiming that it is something else doing the responding so I'm not sure what this would prove regarding my subconsious - I'm assuming that it would need my eyes too :).
 
Sounds like fun. I'm thinking of doing something similar with dowsing.

See how the other half live, as it were.
 
blue sock monkey said:
Do you find that your Ouija sessions bring up similar images and/or themes as your dreams and daydreams? That would tend to suggest that the answer to their origins lies, as ExMinister discussed, in your subconscious.
Click to expand...

When I was experimenting with the Ouija board, what it said never related to my dreams or daydreams either. I don't think it necessarily follows that it would. I'm talking specifically about lucid dreaming, which is much different from ordinary dreaming in that you really feel you are interacting with real people, and the main point is that lucid dream characters often say and do unexpected things. They do not necessarily do what I will them to do and seem to have minds of their own. Most lucid dreamers say the same thing, and I think that's partly why there's so much "woo" around lucid dreaming, with people believing they are really interacting with entities on another dimension.

How this relates to Ouija - I just suspect there may be a similar dynamic at play, where the same part of our minds capable of creating lucid dream characters that seem to have opinions and characters all their own can also create characters that will communicate through a board with us.

I was really good at working the Ouija board, too. I could even make it work by myself, and I was convinced it wasn't me moving it. I really believed back then that I could contact the spirit world with it, including spirit guides, which I had been taught were all-knowing. That made me stick with it for a long time, and in hindsight all I can say is it was frustrating never to get any sort of information out of it that I didn't already know, or as you say, what I did get that seemed predictive never happened. Of course, I had the same experience with lucid dreaming.

I wonder if maybe our minds will draw on whatever memories are stored there to create the lucid dreaming world, and maybe the material that comes through with a Ouija board too.
 
Interesting. I can control the "actors" and actions in my lucid dreams; I thought this was quite common. My first experience of the phenonmenon was the sudden thought, "This is such a boring dream--I wish it was about ___" and the dream shifted immediately for me.
 
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