• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Idealists: What does 'physical' mean to you?

More hilarity from the Pixy.
To see how absurd you're being, simply imagine a situation in which you know you are currently not conscious.
Well, there's two answers to that.

One is the lucid dreaming situation I mention above; however, I would argue that I am conscious in that case - asleep, yes, but conscious.

The other answer is: How do you know you are conscious?

To know that you are currently not conscious you would have to be what?

(I'll help you out) _ o _ s _ _ _ _ s
How do you know?

Is the fact that you can formulate the question sufficient to provide the answer, as Descartes wrote?

I say that it is. Alongside Descartes and Hofstadter and Dennett, to name but a few.

And that means that toasters are conscious, and your and Malerin's and HypnoPsi's and AkuManiMani's objections are rendered non sequiturs by your own argument.
 
Can you offer a convincing explanation as to how adding 'a priori' to the start of a proposition makes that proposition not a proposition?
Even if you could show that adding qualifiers to propositions can magic them into being non-propositions then you are in the following position.
Wow , overgenralize much? Keep pretending that you are answering my point. It must threaten you or you would actually respond to it.

Please explain to me why you think I said that all propositions are meaningless?

Because you can't counter what i actually said?

Figures, you will act funny and rude in proportion to your inability to answer the question.
a) you are not making a proposition, so you're literally saying nothing in regard to the relationship, if any, between meaninglessness and propositions
Um, yeah , right PJ, just try to shift the goal post. Okay by me if youw ant to pretend to ignore what i actually said.
If, however, you cannot manage it you are back where I initially said you were
b) in the self-defeating position of making a proposition which states that all propositions are meaningless.
Huh, I didn't say that, now did I?
If it is a, then the most rational thing you can do is to shut up. If it is b then the most reasonable thing you can do is acknowledge the self-defeating nature of that position, appropriately modify your belief on the matter, and move on.

Wow Plumjam, you willingness to ignore what i am saying is amazing.

How does saying that a priori assesments and judgments are meaningless in the context of making predictions have anything to do with what you said?

My statement is saying that without referents to something, either experience or what have you, that all propositions are meaningless.

But you will continue to ignore my point, because you have no answer.

So continue to make it like I said ALL propositions are meaningless, which is not what I said.

What do you think language and communication is? Does it exist without phenomena or 'material' to reference. (Assuming that separate beings exist).

So try to address that if you will.

Otherwise your mighty steed is warmed up and waiting for your gallop.
 
My statement is saying that without referents to something, either experience or what have you, that all propositions are meaningless.
Ok, at least this has the form, if not the content, of an explanation.
Now please provide an example of a proposition which is 'without referents to something, either experience or what have you'.
 
Well, there's two answers to that.

One is the lucid dreaming situation I mention above; however, I would argue that I am conscious in that case - asleep, yes, but conscious.

The other answer is: How do you know you are conscious?


How do you know?

Is the fact that you can formulate the question sufficient to provide the answer, as Descartes wrote?

I say that it is. Alongside Descartes and Hofstadter and Dennett, to name but a few.

And that means that toasters are conscious, and your and Malerin's and HypnoPsi's and AkuManiMani's objections are rendered non sequiturs by your own argument.

I'm not following your jump (a kind of 'jump' which would greatly facilitate intergalactic travel) from a conscious being (yourself) recognising the self-evident absurdity of doubting whether one is conscious, to your....

And that means that toasters are conscious
 
Can you offer a convincing explanation as to how adding 'a priori' to the start of a proposition makes that proposition not a proposition?
Even if you could show that adding qualifiers to propositions can magic them into being non-propositions then you are in the following position.

a) you are not making a proposition, so you're literally saying nothing in regard to the relationship, if any, between meaninglessness and propositions

If, however, you cannot manage it you are back where I initially said you were
b) in the self-defeating position of making a proposition which states that all propositions are meaningless.

If it is a, then the most rational thing you can do is to shut up. If it is b then the most reasonable thing you can do is acknowledge the self-defeating nature of that position, appropriately modify your belief on the matter, and move on.


Curious that you find contradiction in David's position but not your own. He stated that propositions need context for meaning, that they are meaningful only in relation to other propositions (though, yes, he stated it in a negative way), but what about the proposition that all propositions need context? Yes, it requires context as well.

Essentially what he said was "we don't know reality" in itself, without a context. And you seem to disagree. Yet, you have also stated that we do know reality "in itself" by means of mystical experiences. But knowing that the experience *is* reality is a proposition, which requires context, so it cannot be known "in itself".

David did not say that all propositions are meaningless without qualification. He said that they are meaningless "in and of themselves", in other words, without context, without relation to other propositions. The proposition that propositions are meaningless in and of themselves does not negate his earlier statement, but demonstrates it because that proposition -- to be meaningful -- requires some type of context for us to understand it.

This is very similar to your rejoinder to someone else who said, and I am paraphrasing, "experience alone is not sufficient" and to which you replied, and I am again paraphrasing, "you could only decide that by means of experience."

You don't seem to pay attention to what people actually say but try to gainsay based on some different version of what they say. The earlier poster did not say that experience is useless for knowledge but that experience alone is not sufficient for knowledge. You somehow seemed to turn that into a proposition that the poster holds that experience is useless, which is the only way I can fathom that your reply makes any sense. Same with David. You've turned his statement about our inability to make sense out of propositions without context into a statement that we are unable to understand propositions at all.

Do you understand why people accuse you of building straw houses?

On a larger note, is anyone interested in getting to the bottom of all this nonsense by actually examining the definitions of the words we use, or should we continue spinning wheels for another ten pages while one group throws mud at the other and both use different definitions and equivocate in an endless parade of semantic masturbation?
 
Ok, at least this has the form, if not the content, of an explanation.
Now please provide an example of a proposition which is 'without referents to something, either experience or what have you'.


I think his whole point is that he can't. It would have no meaning. We can't speak in terms of propositions that have no other referent, and that is why we can't speak of ultimate reality or know ultimate reality.
 
plumjam said:
More hilarity from the Pixy.
To see how absurd you're being, simply imagine a situation in which you know you are currently not conscious.
To know that you are currently not conscious you would have to be what?
(I'll help you out) _ o _ s _ _ _ _ s
Rhymes with the first name of that guy who helped decide Jesus' fate and didn't fly planes yet.
So you're saying that it is impossible to program a computer to think that it is conscious and respond exactly like you do?

It's really not as simple as you appear to think.

~~ Paul
 
On a larger note, is anyone interested in getting to the bottom of all this nonsense by actually examining the definitions of the words we use, or should we continue spinning wheels for another ten pages while one group throws mud at the other and both use different definitions and equivocate in an endless parade of semantic masturbation?
Even after examining the definitions of the words we use this thread will end up being semantic masturbation, unless a miracle happens and everyone who has been participating actually manage to agree on a mutually compatible set of definitions. Then the thread will just be the various factions flinging semantically coherent poo at each other, instead of the semantically incoherent poo they are flinging right now.

Aren't primate conflicts fun? ;)
 
On a larger note, is anyone interested in getting to the bottom of all this nonsense by actually examining the definitions of the words we use, or should we continue spinning wheels for another ten pages while one group throws mud at the other and both use different definitions and equivocate in an endless parade of semantic masturbation?
Little point in that, I'm afraid.

One side has observed that all self-consistent ontologies that accurately reflect reality are of necessity functionally equivalent.

The other claims that Rupert Sheldrake proves the existence of God.

One side is right; the other side is not even wrong.
 
Little point in that, I'm afraid.

One side has observed that all self-consistent ontologies that accurately reflect reality are of necessity functionally equivalent.

The other claims that Rupert Sheldrake proves the existence of God.

One side is right; the other side is not even wrong.


But, but, if we all agreed on a clear and workable definition of the morphogenetic field.....................


Ah, nuts.
 
Information sustaining itself is predicated on nothing known to exist (unless you believe it first).
It's predicated on the fact that stuff continues to exist without any effort on the part of my phenomenal awareness.


Objective phenomea would continue to exist without our being aware of them regardless of whether or not they are God-thought or self-sustaining.

You're whole argument is basically that they must be self-sustaining because they're there.

My belief that it is self-sustaining is no more or less complex than your belief that god sustains it.


I'm torn between worndering here if you either just don't really understand what it means to construct a theory parsimoniously or if you just can accept the conclusion. It may be a bit of both...

Look, both theories are trying to find the missing piece of the puzzle ("why does the Universe exist?") Your atheistic solution to the missing piece is based upon something you've never encountered - either self-sustaining information or some self-sustaining substance. The theistic soloution is based on consciousness - something we have encountered.

Also, my belief that it is self-sustaining is justified, since it sustains itself.


Your belief is only based upon your belief - not on your observations. All your observations have shown you is that the phenomenal universe exists. The rest is theory - and that inclues both the God-theory or self-sustaining theory.


I think you're a deist, right? Theists believe in a personal god. Does god answer your prayers?


That's far to complicated a question for me to answer easily. The only answer I can give you is that I believe we are from time to time given guidance in life via the events, opportunities and encounters that come our way.


I don't want to ask them. I want to ask the robot. Or a zombie. Won't they answer precisely the same way you do?


Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the programing. I think that psi tests might go some way towards solving this. But why do you think the robot (or toaster oven or fridge) has phenomenal experience in the first place?

~
HypnoPsi
 
What makes you think that existence requires a 'sustainer', let alone a sentient personage to do the 'sustaining'? Your central point of contention seems to be:

"Reality requires a 'sustainer' and materialism fails to posit one. Therefore, it is incorrect."


I have never claimed that reality requries a sustainer. I have only ever made it clear that God is a much more parsimonious theory, being predicated on consciousness, than reality being self (or auto) sustaining (as either information or "uncuttable" matter) since this is predicated on nothing but itself.

~
HypnoPsi
 
I don't usually say this sort of thing, but this is turning into a repetitious lie on your part. Most theists, including you, don't believe in a god that is nothing more or less than an analogy to consciousness.


This is a baseless and futile accusation. The God theory almost certainly has it's basis in the sense of the Other (than Self) in consciousness.

God is endowed with all sorts of extra attributes that we've all been listing for pages now. The mechanisms for all those attributes are unknowns.


I don't care what attributes you or anyone else insists God must be endowed with. That's solely a private hobby of yours as far as I'm concerned.

~
HypnoPsi
 
HypnoPsi's invocation of God is undefined, unnecessary and unsupported.


I'll define "God" as and when further evidence becomes available. You want to play with possible definitions talk to Paul.

~
HypnoPsi
 
I have never claimed that reality requries a sustainer. I have only ever made it clear that God is a much more parsimonious theory, being predicated on consciousness, than reality being self (or auto) sustaining (as either information or "uncuttable" matter) since this is predicated on nothing but itself.
Which continues to be complete and utter nonsense.
Your continued repeated dishonest statement that "Goddidit!!!" is somehow more parsimonious is absurd and build on nothing but straw.

To break down your argument:
Materialist: The universe is made of stuff. Stuff seems to interact via known natural laws to produce various phenomena. One of these phenomena seems to be consciousness. We don't know why this occurs.
You: The universe is made of stuff but consciousness(as I define it to suit my purposes) is apparently somehow independent of this stuff therefore consciousness is the only truly known things therefore god(as however I define it) is real. I know this because I said so.

You can correct me anytime.
 
To summarize your long meandering post:
"Immaterialist state "We don't know but god is involved" is more parsimonious then the Materialist statement of "We don't know"."

Correct me if I find your hypocrisy and nonsense exceedingly funny.


You know it's just ashame there isn't an equivalent recognition in this forum for the most useless posts as there is the procedure of nomination on those considered the best.

Your statement above is based on absolutely nothing that anyone on either side has been saying in this whole thread.

~
HypnoPsi
 
I'll define "God" as and when further evidence becomes available. You want to play with possible definitions talk to Paul.
Translation:"I'll define god when I get to move the goalpost later on if any evidence contradicts my version of it."
 
You know it's just ashame there isn't an equivalent recognition in this forum for the most useless posts as there is the procedure of nomination on those considered the best.

Your statement above is based on absolutely nothing that anyone on either side has been saying in this whole thread.

~
HypnoPsi
Really? So you're hand waving my summary of your nonsense away? Seems very close to the nonsense you've been spouting all this time.
Come on, give it a shot. Summarize exactly what you're saying. Be very very exact about your definition on parsimony and "god".
Maybe you're much smarter than I am. Let me see how different it really is.

Somehow I expect you to play a semantic games and avoid real definitions so you can always move the goal post or chicken out of it. I've never expected more from idealist/solipcistic(or whatever you attempt to dishonestly label yourself) who use little semantic games to support your little delusions.
 
Last edited:
HypnoPsi said:
I have never claimed that reality requries a sustainer. I have only ever made it clear that God is a much more parsimonious theory, being predicated on consciousness, than reality being self (or auto) sustaining (as either information or "uncuttable" matter) since this is predicated on nothing but itself.


Wait a second now........God is a more parsimonious theory?

OK, let's examine this.

From the cogito we know that thought exists. But we only know that thought exists because knowledge is predicated on thought. In other words we know that thought exists only because knowledge would be impossible without thought, thought being the necessary condition for knowledge. The cogito is a truism and nothing else.

How is it that we move from the necessary precondition for us to speak of knowledge to the most parsimonious explanation for ultimate reality? I've heard some big leaps in my day, but that's an absolute whopper. Our knowledge of thought existing is primarily a statement about our state of knowledge in the face of radical doubt. It was not meant, nor does it demonstrate any ontological condition, particularly not a demonstration of the primary constituent of the universe.

Why is it any less a leap to move from consciousness as ultimate reality than it is move from "energy" as the ultimate reality? Doesn't consciousness itself depend on an animating force? Is there not something more fundamental than consciousness necessarily? Is consciousness self-animating somehow? Is that part of the definition of consciousness?
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom