ID/Creationism - How fast were extinctions?

[Darat]

Re: question

Do any of you believe in God?

Nick

Quite a lot of Members here believe in at least one God, I believe we have some that believe in more then one.

Will you be getting back to me about the conflicting facts the Bible gives about the Flood story?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Evolution scoffs at the flood, but is all about life evolving from non-living material.

No it isn't.

The theory of evolution has no connection whatsoever with the topic which you claim it is "all about".

Once more you are repeating a fundie lie without doing the bare minimum of research to find out whether what you're saying is true or false.

You have a totally different world view to interpret the evidence so it is certainly tough to find common ground on what can and cannot be proved.

I can think of another reason why we aren't agreeing. It has nothing to do with worldviews or interpretation of evidence. It's that you've had your head stuffed with a lot of things which aren't actually true, and you haven't been bothered to find out if they're true or not.

Let me ask you again, doesn't this bother you? Don't you feel obliged to speak the truth?

 

[Dr Adequate]

You may find this article of interest --- here are some salient quotes:

After six months of looking, I finally found work as a geophysicist working for a seismic company. Within a year, I was processing seismic data for Atlantic Richfield.

This was where I first became exposed to the problems geology presented to the idea of a global flood…

I worked hard over the next few years to solve these problems. I published 20+ items in the Creation Research Society Quarterly. I would listen to ICR, have discussions with people like Slusher, Gish, Austin, Barnes and also discuss things with some of their graduates that I had hired.

In order to get closer to the data and know it better, with the hope of finding a solution, I changed subdivisions of my work in 1980. I left seismic processing and went into seismic interpretation where I would have to deal with more geologic data. My horror at what I was seeing only increased. There was a major problem; the data I was seeing at work, was not agreeing with what I had been taught as a Christian. Doubts about what I was writing and teaching began to grow. Unfortunately, my fellow young earth creationists were not willing to listen to the problems…

Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true?"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either.

 

[Correa Neto]

How he managed to pass examinations?

The correct answers to questions regarding radioactive isotopes decay constants and age of the Earth and Universe would be contrary to his beliefs.

He lied in the tests?

Somehow managed not to study such topics?

 

[Correa Neto]

Re: Re: Re: Flood Water

Nick: One of the theories is that steam from eruptions supplied for global rain.

I will repeat. This would imply an enourmous increase in volcanic eruptions at a very short ammount of time all around the world. Besides what you called "steam" (actually composed by water, carbon dioxide, sulpuhric acid and methane) volcanoes pour ashes, ignimbrite clouds, lava, cause lahars, etc.

Question: Where are the all these tuff, ignimbrite, lava and lahar layers associated with the eruptions that caused or helped to cause the deluge? Note that all of them must have the same age!

Answer: Volcanic activity has been following the same rate in the last tens of million years. Nothing can be linked to such a hypothetical recent short intense volcanic activity period.

Implication: The theory is ready to be dumped, and those who created it need to be better informed.

Nick: I assume you are talking about temperatures on Earth would get too hot?

Do you know of any mechanism that would allow such canopy to exist? Do you have an idea of what records such a canopy would have left? Do you know if "life as we know, Jim" would be possible under the conditions implyied by such canopy? Do you know of any planetary model with such a feature? Do you know the qualifications of those who created such model? Don´t you think their minds can be clouded by a canopy of prejudice?

Nick: This is not an argument of proof from lack of evidence but my point is that we can make assumptions but the flood of the bible can not be tested today. What we observe today is not like the event of the bible's flood. That is my point.

In this case, absence of evidence is evidence of absence (Sagan would like the twisting of the sentence). The flood of the Bible would have left traces. And the traces are not found anywhere. The theoretical backgrounds that would allow such phenomena are also inoherent and flawed. No universal deluge. Period.

Nick: Then I guess any discussion of origins is pointless. You can not prove life evolved from natural processes, but it is in the text books. Life evolving from non-life is the dumbest idea ever. Evolution scoffs at the flood, but is all about life evolving from non-living material. Where is your science to even come close to supporting that idea.

No, I can not prove, but scientists can point to an immense ammount of evidence that it evolved from natural processes. Can you point a single evidence it did not? No. You just say "because its written in the Bible".

I would like to write that life not evolving from non-living material is the dumbest idea, but the universal deluge and a 6ky Earth are strong canditates.

BTW, define "life" and "non-living material". "A rock is not living" does not qualify. A virus is alive?

You have a totally different world view to interpret the evidence so it is certainly tough to find common ground on what can and cannot be proved.

My world view is based ona simple and straightforward philosophy- weight the evidence (as well as the interpretation of the data) and check its validity. Good thing to make with the Bible too.

I am not following here. I didn't say anything about geology that existed before the flood.

Yes, you did, you just haven´t (or didn´t want to) realise it. By acepting that geological phenomena that happen today -and happened at biblical times- shape the Earth, you accept that Earth is not just 6Ky old. 2.7 Gy old fluvial sandstones have the same sedimentary structures you find in sand at a river bed today.

 

[Dr Adequate]

How he managed to pass examinations?

The correct answers to questions regarding radioactive isotopes decay constants and age of the Earth and Universe would be contrary to his beliefs.

He lied in the tests?

Somehow managed not to study such topics?

He says he did no geology courses, so he wouldn't find stuff about decay constants directly in conflict with his beliefs: you need a lot of other data too.

Perhaps cosmology is optional for physicists.

Anyway, now we know how to 'cure' Young Earth Creationists --- get them jobs as geologists.

 

[Ossai]

Nick Harman

I already mentioned this earlier. It came from inside the earth and from above. Already mentioned a couple of theories, canopy and steam from volcanic activity.

And we’ve already ask it a number of times.
Where did the water come from?
Have you even bothered to read this thread? All you’ve done so far is:

The bible says F
There is no evidence of F.
But there was F, because the bible says so.
Why should we trust the bible?
Because the bible is right.
Why?
Because the bible says the bible is right.

It’s a meaningless cycle. Present some evidence.

Where did the water go?

Answer: No not literally in the sense that the world is motionless as I believe you are implying. This is talking about God as the creator, the sustainer. He created and he will uphold the earth. This is in harmony with the whole of scripture that tells us we need to trust and dedend in God.

Then why should the flood story be taken literally?
If you bother to read the quotes, posted by Dr Adequate, in context they very clearly describe a stable, flat earth.

I do not know much about Galileo. Another time maybe. Unless you insist, post me some material.

[size=large]?[/size] Galileo Galilei

This does not jibe well with the distribution of species we see today. In particular, I keep wondering about the poor kangaroos and wallabies and spiny anteaters and platypuses and so on making it to Australia.

In the Answers Book from AiG, they point out that animals are moved around by humans, so this could contribute. They also noted that fossilation is rare, so it is not a huge surprise that we do not see a fossil path of migration. Per the book examples would be buffalo, and lions in Israel until recently but we do not find their fossils.

Apparently Dr Adequate’s post flew right over your head. Go back and reread it and if you still don’t understand it, ask him to explain it to you.

Nick: This is not an argument of proof from lack of evidence but my point is that we can make assumptions but the flood of the bible can not be tested today. What we observe today is not like the event of the bible's flood. That is my point.

You’re not making or answering a point, you’re throwing up straw men.

Nick: Then I guess any discussion of origins is pointless. You can not prove life evolved from natural processes, but it is in the text books.

Hey clueless guy, we’re doing so in labs RIGHT NOW.

Life evolving from non-life is the dumbest idea ever.

Catch up on your science, being worked on now.

Ossai

 

[fishbob]

In the Answers Book from AiG, they point out that animals are moved around by humans, so this could contribute. They also noted that fossilation is rare, so it is not a huge surprise that we do not see a fossil path of migration. Per the book examples would be buffalo, and lions in Israel until recently but we do not find their fossils.

Nick

Which humans would be dumb enough to carry:

Polar Bears to the Arctic?
Tigers to Sumatra?
Komodo dragons to Komodo?
Crocodiles to Florida?
Army ants to Brazil?

Noahs family was not big enough or stupid enough to be dinner for that many predators. The story of redistribution of animals around the world would have to be one of the greatest stories ever told, but not a peep has come down through the ages.

AiG is full of beans. The clueless telling stories to the gullible.

 

[fishbob]

I wonder what are their explanations for metasedimentary rocks...

Instant post-deluge metamorphism?
Antediluvian layers metamorphosed by the weight of the waters?

And how they explain that layers supposedly deposited during the deluge can be tilted, faulted, folded, buried underneath kilometres of rock (including massive volcanics) or uplifited miles high?
Instant post-deluge tectonics + instant post-deluge erosion?

Tectonics happens very fast and when no one is around to see it? . . .

You are still trying to show evidence to people that refuse to see evidence. I applaud your persistence. I doubt your chances of success.

The YEC take pride in their ignorance. They take comfort in their lack of responsibility for their actions. Reason and logic don't fit into their world. They probably hold competitions for the title of Most Reality Impaired.

 

[fishbob]

Re: question

Do any of you believe in God?

Nick

Irrelevant to the topic. YEC's goofy interpretation of the bible has nothing to do with God.

 

[delphi_ote]

Catch up on your science, being worked on now.[/B]

Nick, if you're serious about this subject and would like to be caught up to date on some evidence for evolution from current science, I work in bioinformatics at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. I'd be happy to answer questions, point you to papers, etc. AIM name is the same as my name here with a space instead of an underscore. Feel free to contact me.

Just a thought: you might want to understand something before you call it the "dumbest idea ever."

 

[H3LL]

Re: question

Looks like it died in here, I have to run. I will be back in here on Monday. Would like to hear more on how life started on Earth. Later.

In Christ,
Nick Harman

A thread that is running to FIVE PAGES with most of the posts dealing with issues you raised is dead?!?!?!?

This is a forum, not a chatroom.

Maybe it's dead because you have no plausible answers to any questions asked and as such seems empty to you?

If you are expecting:

Person A: How do you explain the fossil record?

Nick: God did it and it's in the bible.

Person A: Oooooh! You are sooooo right! Thanks. Bless you.

I'm afraid you have come to the wrong place.



Sorry all for the big upper-case bit. I'm suffering from a bad case of invisibilitis. I'll move on to screaming and stamping my feet later.

 

[farmermike]

Re: Flood Water

Genesis 7:11 (KJV)
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.


Nick

I had it in my head that Noah was 600 when he started the ark.500 would seem a little more believable.At 600 it really is time to slow down,would also explain the absense of any great grand kids.

 

[Nick Harman]

Re: Re: question

Quite a lot of Members here believe in at least one God, I believe we have some that believe in more then one.

Will you be getting back to me about the conflicting facts the Bible gives about the Flood story?

I asked you where was the conflicting account to save me time searching it out, or do you know? If you can tell me where you get this idea, I will refute it.

Nick

 

[Ossai]

Nick Harman

I asked you where was the conflicting account to save me time searching it out, or do you know? If you can tell me where you get this idea, I will refute it.

Proof you haven’t been reading the thread. The exact verses have been referenced and posted by Darat on the third page of this thread.

BTW
Genesis Chapter 6
19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Genesis: Chapter 7
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Ossai

 

[Correa Neto]

You are still trying to show evidence to people that refuse to see evidence. I applaud your persistence. I doubt your chances of success.

The YEC take pride in their ignorance. They take comfort in their lack of responsibility for their actions. Reason and logic don't fit into their world. They probably hold competitions for the title of Most Reality Impaired.

Thanks. But the appaluse should go for the people who answer posts from Kumar, Lifegazer, 1inChrist, among others. These are persistent obstinate people fighting against all odds!

I also happen to enjoy surrounding myself with a smokescreen of reason and logic .

EDITED TO ADD
BTW, I wonder how Noah handled these in the ark:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4409039.stm
And I also wonder how they managed to bring them to Australia...
And I´m angry because god decided they should go to oblivion... Why, oh Lord, why?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Australia is home to dozens of unique species of venomous snake, including the Taipan, the Red Bellied Black, Black Tiger, Copperhead, Gwardar, Collett's, Fierce, Eastern Tiger, Eastern Brown, Death Adder and the Mulga.

Here is a picture of a Death Adder...

... feeling slightly confused at being told to "go forth and multiply".

Now, Nick, can you explain how and why anyone would herd these creatures to Australia from Turkey (without, you notice, losing any on the way --- Australian snakes are unique to Australia) and why they didn't, instead, take any domesticated meat animals such as sheep, goats, or cattle?

 

[Bikewer]

Those are just a few examples. There are many thousands of species ranging from fairly large mammals to tiny insects and other arthropods which exist in tiny ecological niches.

In the various South American habitats, creatures often are confined to an area of a couple of miles, and are found nowhere else on Earth.

It seems to me from glancing over this thread that our friend has memorized much chapter and verse from a variety of creationist tracts, but has little or no grounding in the sciences he's trying to refute.

 

[H3LL]

Those are just a few examples. There are many thousands of species ranging from fairly large mammals to tiny insects and other arthropods which exist in tiny ecological niches.

This also begs the question how Noah managed to mainain the environment on the arc for those creatures that live in low-pressure sub-zero environments and those that live in high-pressure high-temperature environments.

Transporting them to where they live must have been rather dificult too.

 

[Correa Neto]

Add to the list animals adapted to live in caves. Certain cave systems have their own unique species.

Amazing work of this Noah guy, placing a given species in cave system A, another there at cave system B! I imagine Noah rappeling down a pitch-black shaft holding a torch and a box with pseudoscorpions...

Not to mention that many of these animals are quite delicate, requiring specific temperature and humidity (add water ph if its the case) conditions. Noah, your Ark must have been something!

Oh, yes, many fish species are quite delicate when it comes to water Ph, salinity, temperature and oxigen levels. How they survived the deluge? Noah had tanks in the Ark? He would need tanks for fresh water and saltwater fish, since the deluge waters must have completely messed subaquatic environment.

YEC will not care for this "tiny detail", since in their wise minds fishes are fishes - whales are also fishes. Or god took care of the fish? But if god took care of the fish, why did Noah needed to build the Ark? God for sure could protect the animals, since its omnipotent.

Thinking on this, why god needed a deluge? Being omnipotent, it could have killed al humans it did not like, sparing just Noah.

Oh, here I go again with the smokescreen of logic and reason...