ID/Creationism - How fast were extinctions?

Re: Have a good weekend

Nick Harman said:
Looks like it died in here
In that case, it's disappointing that you didn't find time to answer a point I raised earlier. You claim that not every species was taken on the ark:
Nick Harman said:
You have a picture of taking every species, but this is not the case.
You have also claimed (by implication) that one species never arises from another.
Nick Harman said:
Has a horse, a dog, a cat, a crocodile, whatever animal you want to pick given rise to another animal. (not a variation, but an observable change to another kind of animal)
If this is the case, how could all the currently existing species arise from a limited number of "kinds" taken on the ark?
 
Nick Harman said:
God has always been.
So why couldn't the single celled organism have "always been?" Why do you have to make up special rules to make God plausible?
 
Mojo said:
So why couldn't the single celled organism have "always been?" Why do you have to make up special rules to make God plausible?

--you have more problems than that. you still have to get the earth here, the stars here, the sun here. then you have to go from that single cell to today. How did you get all that information required for evolution when all we observe are losses of information.
--additionally we have a logical position of trusting in the word of the Creator. You have a position based solely on the fact that you do not want there to be a God, not because the evidence leads you there.

In Christ,
Nick
 
Something I've always wondered about:

The Great Pyramid shows no evidence at all of ever having been submerged. Therefore, it must be of post-Flood construction.

But it is so old that it must have been constructed within a few hundred years, at most, of the Flood.

Even at optimum, Noah's descendants must have numbered in the low thousands by that time. They were spread out over the world. Maybe a couple of hundred lived in Egypt.

How was that pyramid built by so few people?
 
Nick Harman said:
---additionally we have a logical position of trusting in the word of the Creator.

Oh yes - now that really is funny. Trusting the word of an unproven entity is a logical standpoint, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
 
Nick Harman said:
[BYou have a position based solely on the fact that you do not want there to be a God, not because the evidence leads you there.[/B]
Nick, that is a lie.
The evidence actually leads us to the conclusions that the earth is billions of years old, that evolution is a reality, and that the flood story is just a story not meant to be taken literally.

If you wish to believe that God created a world in six days that merely appears in every way to be billions of years old then you are entitled to believe that.
But please don't lie and tell us the evidence doesn't indicate that the earth is really very old. This has been demonstrated to you in many different ways during the course of this thread with links, evidence and explanations.

And why, exactly, would someone not want there to be a God? How do you come to that conclusion? Or is it yet another example of something you have been told and just believe without thinking about it?
 
Nick Harman said:
--additionally we have a logical position of trusting in the word of the Creator. You have a position based solely on the fact that you do not want there to be a God, not because the evidence leads you there.
Nick

Did the pope (may he rest in peace) believe in God? He believed in evolution, and he did not believe in taking the story of Noah and the flood literally. Many Christians believe in God, but do not think that facts have to be ignored in order to sustain the belief in their god.
 
Nick Harman said:
--you have more problems than that. you still have to get the earth here, the stars here, the sun here.

Physics, astronomy, astrophysics, cosmology and geology will provide you the answers.

Nick Harman said:
--then you have to go from that single cell to today.

Paleontology, biology and biochemistry will provide you the answers.

Nick Harman said:
How did you get all that information required for evolution when all we observe are losses of information.

"All we observe are losses of information"? Absolutely not. The only losses of information are in the minds of creationists.

Whoever told you this is at least an ignorant when it comes to science (this is the least worse of the interpretations).

We have a lot of information, from various fields, from independent sources, following rigid sets of criteria. And what creationists have to support their YE claims? Twisted interpretations and a gigantic ammount of data hidden under the rug and skeletons in the closet.

Nick Harman said:
--additionally we have a logical position of trusting in the word of the Creator. You have a position based solely on the fact that you do not want there to be a God, not because the evidence leads you there.

Misinterpretation and prejudice again. All we require to accept that something exists is evidence. The evidence leads us to think that there was no deluge and YE ideas are faulty.

The key here are the differences between "believing" and "thinking".

BTW, will you be able to provide any evidence for your YE claims other than passages of the Bible? Are you able to show evidence, other than passages of the Bible, against at least one of the problems with the deluge myth?

If not, at least in one thing I will agree with you: this thread is dead.

As for what we think about god´s existance, this is a derailing, but as it was already written by other posters, most of us here don not think any interpretations of a deity based on the Bible is a valid possibility. And this includes most of those who belive in a deity.
 
Nick Harman said:
You have a position based solely on the fact that you do not want there to be a God.

In case you're too lazy to read all of this, I'm calling you a hypocrite and a bad example for your Christian brothers. Since you only seem to read negative/confrontational posts, maybe that will get your attention.

Who would not want a loving, personal God that could solve our problems by prayer? Who would not want the comfort of knowing what is right based on one absolute authority? Who would not want an absolute purpose to our existence? Who would not want to believe that humans are special and that whatever ethnicity/nationality they belong to is the MOST special? Who would not want to be free of the burden of thinking for ourselves? Who would not want to be free from the thought that everything might happen completely in vain? Who would not want to wonder if their actions might be wrong?

But that's the easy way out. That is YOUR way out. We're honest with ourselves. Aside from a book translated many times and the traditions handed down to us from holy people, we have no proof of God and no proof the Christian bible is any more true than the Koran or any other holy book. We also have no proof there is no God. You can't prove or disprove any of these things. If you were honest with yourself, you'd accept your religion on faith like you're supposed to, not physical evidence.

But you are a hypocrite. You're not exhibiting the least of Christian virtues. Your condecending talk, patronizing attitude, and outright arrogant posts are disgusting. Is this the Christian example you're supposed to be demonstrating before the godless heathen? You only take away the tenents of your faith that allow you to feel better than us. Where is your humility? "Blessed are the meek." "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and selfcontrol." "All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." I guess you don't like those verses?

"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." I guess you're going to ignore that one, too?

All of the people in this forum are trying to understand, explain, and help you think for yourself. In return, you imply we have some hidden agenda. Who are you to judge us? Who are you to say our faith is less or wrong? "Judge not..."

I personally appealed to you to offer to show you current evidence of these things, but you're ignoring any positive post. That offer still stands.

But go ahead. By all means. Keep making a hypocrite out of yourself and making your faith look bad. We all know you're saved anyway. You're one of God's chosen! Who cares about manners, compassion, or humility. Even if they are in the damn bible. You can just take the parts you like! Picking and choosing is fun! And it lets you talk down to and belittle the people in this forum. We're just agents of the devil who don't want a god to exist. It's not like Jesus would love us. " God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Oh wait! Maybe he does!

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thy say to thy brother, "Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?" Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye." Did you miss that verse, too?

For someone who purports the Bible is his ultimate authority, you sure don't seem to take it very seriously. It almost seems like we've read it more closely than you have...
 
Darat said:
But you can add to the what the Bible says, isn't that the same?

--you are correct and many people do. I try not to, but I am sure that I do. Not on the issue of where did God come from.

Nick
 
Nick Harman said:
--you are correct and many people do. I try not to, but I am sure that I do. Not on the issue of where did God come from.

Nick
Aaaanyway.

Back to the specific questions we have asked you about creationism?

I shall repeat some of mine:

Where does primitive man using bone and stone tools fit into the bible story? When did they exist, and why?

What part of the construction of the pyramids could not be achieved today (slightly off the topic I realise, but I'm interested)?

How many of each 'type' of animals were taken on the ark? You appear now to be happy that it was more than 2 of each type. (This is now answered) What does this now imply for the size of the ark and feeding the animals on the ark?

What did the animals eat when they disembarked from the ark?

What happened to all the plants? How did they survive?

When Noah and his amazing family were distributing the animals back around the world, what was happening to the animals they weren't distributing? What were they eating and why didn't they eat each other?

I am happy for you to ignore these questions for the moment if you can address the question of
Where did water come from,
and
Where did the water go?
 
Nick Harman
Originally posted by Darat
But you can add to the what the Bible says, isn't that the same?
--you are correct and many people do. I try not to, but I am sure that I do. Not on the issue of where did God come from.
Maybe not.
Answer: Does Chapter 7 instructions void Chapter 6? No. He is still taking the 2 of each kind. Saying verse 9 in ch. 7 is an error is faulty because you are arguing error by ommission. Because in this particular part of the text it doesn't restate the 7 pairs doesn't mean it didn't happen. Same charge is made in regards to it not stating what clean is at this point in the scripture. I have no problem with that. God told Noah but it isn't in the text. Error by ommission does not prove error. Noah would have never got that ark built with your mind set, he would have argued with him about every single detail!!! (humor intended) You are straining gnats here. Any one can read this text and know that God wanted 2 of every kind of animal and 7 of every clean animal, and 7 of fowls.
Except it lists 2 of every kind and then lists them.
Then it says 7 clean and 7 fowls – which were listed in the 2 of every kind.

Where did the water come from?

Where did the water go?


Ossai
 
Nick Harman said:
--you are correct and many people do. I try not to, but I am sure that I do. Not on the issue of where did God come from.

Nick

Apparently you read this forum like you read the bible: only paying attention to the parts you like.

I'd love for you to prove me wrong and start practicing what you preach instead of being an arrogant, rude hypocrite.

"All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.""
 
Nick Harman said:
--you have more problems than that. you still have to get the earth here, the stars here, the sun here. then you have to go from that single cell to today. How did you get all that information required for evolution when all we observe are losses of information.
This, again, is a lie you're repeating without checking to see whether it's true. Of course, like all YEC arguments, it is false.

Amusingly, you say "all we observe are losses of information". May I ask what you've been observing?

So where did you get your ideas from?

From a researcher in bioinformatics, such as delphi_ote?

From a science textbook?

No, from a fundie tract.
--additionally we have a logical position of trusting in the word of the Creator. You have a position based solely on the fact that you do not want there to be a God, not because the evidence leads you there.
Again, this is a lie you have been taught mindlessly to repeat. It is also an offensive lie. It is also a very stupid lie, because obviously you cannot convince me that I feel what I don't feel and think what I don't think. But it is what you've been taught to believe.

It is utterly false.

Instead of repeating lies to me about what I think, why don't you ask me what I think?

Instead of repeating lies about science, why don't you read some textbooks?

Why can't you be bothered to tell the truth?
 
Dr Adequate said:
Instead of repeating lies to me about what I think, why don't you ask me what I think?

As usual, Dr. A, you nail the problem right on the head. That is exactly why I am so digusted by Nick's attitude. We've all been perfectly willing to listen to what he thinks, to educate him on things of which he is ignorant, and think of clever arguments for an interesting discussion. However the "Christian" comes to our board to insult us while offering nothing productive in return. They're not even clever insults. They're the literary equivalent of being bumped into by a clumsy drunk.

Psychology needs a new term: "chosen person syndrome."
 
Nick Harman said:
How did you get all that information required for evolution when all we observe are losses of information.
For a comprehensive rebuttal of this "argument," see Richard Dawkins's book, A Devil's Chaplain, chapter 2.3, The 'Information Challenge'.
 
By the way, you still haven't bothered to try to answer one of my questions. If, as you claim, not every species was taken onto the ark:
Originally posted by Nick Harman
You have a picture of taking every species, but this is not the case.
(you have said that "kinds" were taken), how have all the species currently existing arisen from those "kinds," seeing as you have also claimed by implication that one species cannot arise from another?
Originally posted by Nick Harman
Has a horse, a dog, a cat, a crocodile, whatever animal you want to pick given rise to another animal. (not a variation, but an observable change to another kind of animal)
 
Nick,

You claim to be a Christian so I assume you follow the 10 Commandments.

Try this one…

Commandment # IX: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.'

I think it is one YEC proponents strike from their list.

Or I guess they must just completely twist the meaning of “false witness” and “neighbour” to allow the blatant prevarication, obfuscation, misdirection and outright lies they go through in support of their corrupt world view.

The sad thing is Nick you will, like all other YEC’s who enter this realm, RUN away like a scared rabbit. Why.. because unless you have a pea for a brain our arguments will make perfect sense and your ridiculous biblical literalist notions will start to crumble… when they do you will hightail it.. fingers in ears.. yelling yayaya.. don’t corrupt my fantasy with your devilish truths !

Hmmm.. already gone has he ?
 

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