ID/Creationism - How fast were extinctions?

[Hutch]

Folks, I am as interested as the rest of you in what Nick has to say, and he seems willing enough to share, but I would note that he is coming at this from a completely different perspective than most of us are.

In the April issue of Smithsonian Magazine (great perk for membership, IMHO), there is an article about Dayton, TN (the location of the Scopes 'monkey' trial). In that article they discuss Bryan College, a Fundamentalist University in Dayton, and Dr. Kurt Wise, who studied under Steven Jay Gould and indeed does have a Phd from Harvard--and he is also a YEC.

To quote from the magazine:

..."God's truth should be used to interpret--to properly interpret--all the data in the universe," Wise writes in his 2002 book, Faith, Form and Time. "All the stars of the universe, all the rocks of the earth, all the organisms on its surface must be reinterperted, as well as the worlds literature, philosophies, and religions. They can and should be reinterperted from a Christian perspective so all these things can be taken captive under the mind of Christ."

What do most other paleontologists and geologists think of this? "Absolute bunk!" says Wise with a laugh. Does he believe evolution is flawed in and of itself, or flawed because it contradicts Genesis? His answer could have come straight from the college's namesake himself: "Scripture trumps interpretations of physical data."

(Italics and Underlining mine. Any spelling mistakes are mine also)

And that is why, interesting as I hope this discussion is, there will be no real debate. Nick holds what he fervently believes is the trump card and no questions or arguments on the actual physical data will matter in the end.

 

[fishbob]

Nick Harmon:

Here is the list from answersingenesis.com

Nick - your list includes dentists and quacks. Now here is a list for you:

Project Steve

NCSE Project Steve
NCSE's "Project Steve" is a tongue-in-cheek parody of a long-standing creationist tradition of amassing lists of "scientists who doubt evolution" or "scientists who dissent from Darwinism." (For examples of such lists, see the FAQs.)

Creationists draw up these lists to convince the public that evolution is somehow being rejected by scientists, that it is a "theory in crisis." Most members of the public lack sufficient contact with the scientific community to know that this claim is totally unfounded. NCSE has been exhorted by its members to compile a list of thousands of scientists affirming the validity of the theory of evolution, but although we easily could have done so, we have resisted such pressure. We did not wish to mislead the public into thinking that scientific issues are decided by who has the longer list of scientists!

Project Steve mocks this practice with a bit of humor, and because "Steves" are only about 1% of scientists, it incidentally makes the point that tens of thousands of scientists support evolution. And it honors the late Stephen Jay Gould, NCSE supporter and friend.

 

[Marvel Frozen]

I notice Nick Harmon's list only has 3 steves, Project Steve has 513 signers (as of November 8, 2004). Hmmm .....

 

[Mojo]

Here is the list from answersingenesis.com. you can read about them on the site.

But, at a quick count, only three of them are called Steve (well, maybe four as Dr S.E. Aw could be a closet Steve).

Edited to add: Rats! Beaten to it! That's what comes of not noticing the thread has gone onto another page...

 

[Nick Harman]

Re: Re: Fossils

Hello and welcome. You will be popular here I assure you (assuming you are a serious poster).

If a flood has killed millions of things why are their remains not all found in the same geological layer?
Answer: Put water and dirt in a jar, shake it up and watch it work, you will not see 1 layer.

And why are there no dinosaurs now? Did Noah just decide not to take them?
Answer: He took them on the ark as the bible says he took two of every kind. Not 2 of every dog, or every horse, but kind. You have a picture of taking every species, but this is not the case. So this would limit the number of dinosaurs required. I have read that the average size of a dinosaur is a sheep, so not all dinosaurs are these massive creatures. So yes he took them and most dinosaurs are extinct. You will scoff at this, but there are many eyewitness accounts of dinosaur like creatures. Loch Ness, Lake Champlaign, etc. Pictures of dinosaurs have been shown to tribes in relatively unexplored places like the congo and places in Africa, and they say they have seen these animals. We know of gigantic snakes. So while I am certainly not dogmatic about some dinosaurs existing today, some people and tribes would say they do in remote unexplored areas. Last comment on the ark is that it took over 100 years to build and God gave the dimmensions in cubits, there have been some large skeletons found, we do not know how big Noah and his son's were, how big was that cubit? Again, not scientific fact I understand, but interesting things to think about.

And why are there no dinosaurs and human fossils in the same geological layers (if they were all killed at the same time)?
Answer: Already mentioned intelligence, people could hold out longer, i.e. rafts, grabbing on to things and floating, etc. A dead person would float also. More factors are involved but this is one, and I do not claim to be the top authority on this or any of the matters discussed.

"If an animal dies and is left to lay, it will be eaten or decay and there will be nothing left of it"
That might be what you would assume, but that is not always correct.
Here's a sinmple site that explains how fossils form.
Answer: maybe I didn't read enough, but what I saw was talking about burial to preserve and begin depositing the minerals to start the fossilizing. I do not believe we would have as many fossils if we were limiting it to many local events.

Also, another question, if Adam and Eve gained knowledge, why were ancient people so primitive? They had stone and bone weapons and sketched crude cave paintings. Is that how Adam and Eve were when they left the garden of Eden?
Answer: I think "ancient" man was smarter than we give him credit for. Artifacts of metals are found in "primitive layers." The Egyptians built the pyramids, and what I have been told is that we couldn't do that today. Look how much we have progressed in this past century (technologically speaking only, our world is getting more and more chaotic everyday, no one can deny this, so we are certainly not better off). So I am not sure what the issue is here.

Serving a risen Savior,
Nick

 

[Darat]

Re: Re: Re: Fossils

[...snip...


Answer: He took them on the ark as the bible says he took two of every kind. Not 2 of every dog, or every horse, but kind.

...snip...
Nick

Nick - that is not what the bible says.

I asked you this question a few posts ago:

How many of each creature did God tell Noah to take into the arc?

Can I suggest you go and re-read the relevant section of the Bible before you answer it?

 

[Dr Adequate]

The trouble is that Nick's quite uncritically swallowed the usual stupid fundie lies. And there's lots of them. So far, he has:

(1) Confused evolution with biogenesis.
(2) Claimed that there are no intermediate forms.
(3) Passed on the usual stupid lie about Stephen Jay Gould, which the poor man has denied so often and so publicly.
(4) Maintained that "Many ancient drawings have pictures drawn of men and dinosaurs together."
(5) Asserted that evolutionary biology is founded on faith.
(6) Confounded evolutionary biology with atheism.
(7) Claimed that it would be impossible to build the pyramids with today's technology.


He did not make up these lies himself. But he's swallowed them quite uncritically. What chance that he'll start thinking critically now?

It would have taken him literally seconds to find out about intermediate forms, or the opinion of Stephen Jay Gould, or the definition of evolution, or the large number of Christians who understand science, or how the pyramids were built --- he has the internet at his fingertips, after all --- but he couldn't be bothered. Seconds, mere seconds, to find out if he's telling the truth. But he's not that interested.

ETA: Oh great, he believes in the Loch Ness Monster as well.

 

[cthiax]

Re: Re: Re: Fossils

Answer: He took them on the ark as the bible says he took two of every kind. Not 2 of every dog, or every horse, but kind. You have a picture of taking every species, but this is not the case. So this would limit the number of dinosaurs required. I have read that the average size of a dinosaur is a sheep, so not all dinosaurs are these massive creatures. So yes he took them and most dinosaurs are extinct.

Where did all the different kinds of dogs come from, then? Perhaps I am not understanding you...

Answer: I think "ancient" man was smarter than we give him credit for.

On this point you are absolutely correct.

Artifacts of metals are found in "primitive layers." The Egyptians built the pyramids, and what I have been told is that we couldn't do that today. Look how much we have progressed in this past century (technologically speaking only, our world is getting more and more chaotic everyday, no one can deny this, so we are certainly not better off). So I am not sure what the issue is here.

Here however you go astray. We could certainly reproduce the pyramids today. And I can indeed deny that the world is 'getting more and more chaotic every day', because that's a matter of opinion and interpretation, not fact, of course. Whether we are better off now than before depends on what you mean by better off - certainly far fewer people die of far fewer horrible diseases now, for a start. But that's another topic.

ETA that my husband read a bit of this exchange and commented, "How could we not build the pyramids today? We could FIRE THE PYRAMIDS INTO SPACE today."

 

[Nick Harman]

Nick Harman
Just a quick list of questions pulled from here and elsewhere. I’ve tried to remove duplicates. The one question I really want you to answer is exactly what do you believe? Is the bible to be taken literally or figuratively or a mixed bag, and how old do you believe the earth is?

Answer: Both. Most of the bible literally. It is historical as indicated by archaeolgical records and findings. Secular writings confirm the kings talked about in the bible, etc. Context will tell whether the writing is literal or figurative. A reading in Genesis is obviously to be taken literal, it is a historical account. The only question is if it is true, not if it is figuratively speaking. And I know some Christians have comprimised and used man's opinion over the God of the universe's written word. Ask a secular Hebrew scholar if the creation days are conveyed as literal days or periods of time and he will tell you days. So the question is truth, not figurative or literal.

I’ve got a few thousand more questions once you’ve hit these high points.

The whole silly flood thing.
Where did the water come from?
Answer: Genesis 7:11 (NKJV)
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up (inside the earth), and the windows of heaven were opened. (from above, i.e. canopy or intense global rain brought on by volcanic activity, opinions vary)

Where did the water go?
answer: you see it all over the earth: Psalm 104 refers to the mountains rising and the valleys sinking.

How many animals did Noah take on the ark?
How did they all fit on there?
How big was the ark?
answer: I addressed this to ashles, refer to that post.

Work the math for the buoyancy of the ark with and without the animals.
answer: I do not know, but the ark only needed to be a gigantic floating device not a craft built to go somewhere. Certainly not diminishing this as a simple task, but do not imagine him having to build a vessel like we see today.

Now work the math allowing only the building materials available at that time.
answer: Wood my friend, the earth was very different before the flood, bible refers to the land being gathered together. Plenty of trees. Pitch I assume as a sealant, and I have no problem believing they had the means, (hardware) to fasten together. I mentioned before we find artifacts that by evolutionary time scales should not be found.

How did the animals receive care, i.e. fed, waste removal, etc
If only ‘kinds’ were taken on the ark, name and give classifications.
answer: I wasn't there, I do not know, there are theories about design of the ark to allow for waste removal and ventilation of fumes.

If only ‘kinds’ were taken on the ark, explain how they developed species diversity afterwards at such a lightning quick pace.
answer: fast changes in species is observable. I heard ken ham talking about a darwin exibit stating about how many different species of a particular animal could arise in only 700 years. I am butchering the quote, but you get the idea.


From MRC_Hans
Parasites. How did parasites, many of which cause life-threatening diseases exist while only Adam and Eve were on Earth? Did they have all those parasites?
Answer: Death is the penalty of sin, so until Adam sinned, there was no death and disease in the world per the bible.

If yes, how did they suvive? Same during the Flood; did Noah and his family host all these parasites? (Of course, same applies to animal parasites)
Bacteria and vira. Essentially the same as parasites, but some fundies are in denial about infectuous diseases (they might, for instance, be homeopaths), so it is useful to keep micro- and macroscopic parasites separated.

Answer: Don't know. At some point we will stop discussing what I believe and we will start talking about what you believe. We have plenty of time for my beliefs for now.


Starlight: We can observe stars that are far more than 6000 LY away. How can their light reach us?
Answer: I would have to assume that light was "arrived" when God created it. This is certainly logical thinking if the bible is true.

Food-chains: This is one for ID'ers. ID'ers modify the timescale of genesis, and acknowledge that creation may have taken a very long time, but that doesn't fly; nearly all life forms are part of big ecosystems, food-chains. Miss one part of an ecosystem for any amount of time, and the whole system breaks down.

answer: I wouldn't try to defend ID's postion, (while they are getting closer) only interested in defending the word of my God, your God, buddist's God, muslims God, the Only God, whether we want to believe it or not, the God of the bible.

Serving the one and only living God,
Nick

That is all the time I have until maybe later today.

 

[Darat]

[
...snip...
How many animals did Noah take on the ark?

...snip...

Sorry to be persistent but I think this is important: how many of each creature did God tell Noah to take into the arc according to the Bible?

 

[Nick Harman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Fossils

Nick - that is not what the bible says.

I asked you this question a few posts ago:

How many of each creature did God tell Noah to take into the arc?

Can I suggest you go and re-read the relevant section of the Bible before you answer it?

I do not need a non believer to tell me what the bible says, I realize the bible says more than that, just did't take the time. Later today I will directly quote it to you and it will not change my answer, you are straining gnats.

In Christ,
Nick

 

[Ashles]

Re: Re: Re: Fossils

thank you for your answers.
Now don't take this the wrong way but when you are trying to explain your beliefs in a scientific way then you have to understand when we explain things to you that you are incorrect about. This is not a matter of opinion or viewpoint, some things you believe are just factually incorrect.

Hello and welcome. You will be popular here I assure you (assuming you are a serious poster).

If a flood has killed millions of things why are their remains not all found in the same geological layer?
Answer: Put water and dirt in a jar, shake it up and watch it work, you will not see 1 layer.

That is something completely different. In your jar example the largest and heaviest particles will sink to the bottom and the finest particles will rest on top.
This is obviously completely different to geological layers - you don't get the finest at the surface and the biggest rocks deepest underground.
It is acually quite worrying that you would try to argue these matters when your knowledge of the subject is so limited.
With that statement you have displayed a level of knowledge about geology that is pre-school level.

And why are there no dinosaurs now? Did Noah just decide not to take them?
Answer: He took them on the ark as the bible says he took two of every kind. Not 2 of every dog, or every horse, but kind. You have a picture of taking every species, but this is not the case. So this would limit the number of dinosaurs required. I have read that the average size of a dinosaur is a sheep, so not all dinosaurs are these massive creatures.

So where do all the other types of horse, dog etc. come from? All the different types have evolved? In (less than ) 6,000 years?

So yes he took them and most dinosaurs are extinct. You will scoff at this, but there are many eyewitness accounts of dinosaur like creatures. Loch Ness, Lake Champlaign, etc. Pictures of dinosaurs have been shown to tribes in relatively unexplored places like the congo and places in Africa, and they say they have seen these animals. We know of gigantic snakes. So while I am certainly not dogmatic about some dinosaurs existing today, some people and tribes would say they do in remote unexplored areas.

This is a very silly argument. No-one can make any kind of serious scientific argument that dinosaurs exist today. Loch Ness? Doesn't it worry you that your theory is on slightly shaky ground if you are resorting to using Loch Ness to back it up?
And how did these huge dinosaurs develop from sheep sized animals in such a short period of time?

Last comment on the ark is that it took over 100 years to build and God gave the dimmensions in cubits, there have been some large skeletons found, we do not know how big Noah and his son's were, how big was that cubit? Again, not scientific fact I understand, but interesting things to think about.

Not particularly interesting really.
If you read this page about the viability of the ark you will see how impossible it is when you give it a certain amount of thought.

And why are there no dinosaurs and human fossils in the same geological layers (if they were all killed at the same time)?
Answer: Already mentioned intelligence, people could hold out longer, i.e. rafts, grabbing on to things and floating, etc. A dead person would float also. More factors are involved but this is one, and I do not claim to be the top authority on this or any of the matters discussed.

Firstly many dinosaurs were marine animals. I think they would hav survived better than men in water.
And dead animals float like dead people so that makes even less sense.
I believe you when you say you are not a top authority in these areas. The top authorities on these matters don't believe in the flood or the ark because it doesn't match any of the actual evidence we find.
Top authorities in the area know about geology and evolution and appreciate how they fit the known facts.

"If an animal dies and is left to lay, it will be eaten or decay and there will be nothing left of it"
That might be what you would assume, but that is not always correct.
Here's a sinmple site that explains how fossils form.
Answer: maybe I didn't read enough, but what I saw was talking about burial to preserve and begin depositing the minerals to start the fossilizing. I do not believe we would have as many fossils if we were limiting it to many local events.

It's not really entirely relevant to reality whther you believe this or not. It describes how fossilisation occurs.

Also, another question, if Adam and Eve gained knowledge, why were ancient people so primitive? They had stone and bone weapons and sketched crude cave paintings. Is that how Adam and Eve were when they left the garden of Eden?
Answer: I think "ancient" man was smarter than we give him credit for. Artifacts of metals are found in "primitive layers."

So why were they using bone and stone weapons? And who were these people anyway? They are not mentioned in the Bible and Noah seemed to have a pretty acceptable level of tool knowledge. Did we forget this all after Noah?
Where do they fit in?

The Egyptians built the pyramids, and what I have been told is that we couldn't do that today.

And I am telling you we could. But you will chose to believe the story that matches your belief.
What exactly do you find so difficult to acept about the pyramids? They are large regularly shaped piles of stones. Making straight lines and regularly shaped masonry, and measuing accurately are hardly unknown skills today. What aspects strike you as beyond our current ability?
Do you, for example, actually know how they constructed the pyramids?

Look how much we have progressed in this past century (technologically speaking only, our world is getting more and more chaotic everyday, no one can deny this, so we are certainly not better off). So I am not sure what the issue is here.

What do you mean by chaotic? Our world today has a level of societal complexity that is much higher which means the systems of society are much more advanced. I think you mean it is more organised.
If we lived in a society as unregulated as that even 400 years ago our social structures could not survive.
By your comparison the human body must be more 'chaotic' than a bacteria.
In the past laws were brutal, oppression was rife, sexism and racism were prolific, people died of horrible illness much younger etc.
In what way do you feel that you, sitting safe at your computer with your family and job, would have been better off years ago?
I never understand this claim.

 

[Darat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fossils

I do not need a non believer to tell me what the bible says, I realize the bible says more than that, just did't take the time. Later today I will directly quote it to you and it will not change my answer, you are straining gnats.

In Christ,
Nick

The Bible is meant to be for everyone isn't it? Are you saying that I shouldn’t read it? That I shouldn't question what I read in it? How else will your God reveal his word to me? (Don't consider those questions I'm expecting answers to.)

Anyway to the reason why I keep bringing this up. You have mentioned time and time again that God told Moses to take 2 of each creature into the Arc. But the Bible actually says something quite different:

Genesis Chapter 6 (KJV)

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.


So there is the "2 of each kind" yo mention, yet if we continue to read:

Genesis: Chapter 7


1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth


And now it has changed to seven pairs of each clean beast.

The Flood story in teh Bible is contradictory some of the ones I can remember are:

7 pairs of clean v 2 pairs of each
Noah sends out a raven v Noah sends out a dove
Flood lasts 40 days and forty nights v flood lasts a year

Even the Bible doesn’t seem to be sure of the facts of the Flood, so how can you be certain?

 

[Mojo]

Re: Re: Re: Fossils

If a flood has killed millions of things why are their remains not all found in the same geological layer?
Answer: Put water and dirt in a jar, shake it up and watch it work, you will not see 1 layer.

Actually, most of the mud will settle into a single layer. Try doing the experiment yourself. The sediment from a single flood certainly won't settle into many layers neatly arranged into a coherent order.

And why are there no dinosaurs now? Did Noah just decide not to take them?
Answer: He took them on the ark as the bible says he took two of every kind. Not 2 of every dog, or every horse, but kind. You have a picture of taking every species, but this is not the case.

So, if two of each species were not taken, and macro-evolution (i.e. evolution from one species to another) doesn't occur (as creationists insist), where did all the currently existing species come from?

You will scoff at this, but there are many eyewitness accounts of dinosaur like creatures. Loch Ness, Lake Champlaign, etc. Pictures of dinosaurs have been shown to tribes in relatively unexplored places like the congo and places in Africa, and they say they have seen these animals. We know of gigantic snakes.

Snakes are reptiles, not dinosaurs. And, since we know of gigantic snakes, and other reptiles, isn't it possible that the pictures these people were shown were mistaken for pictures of gigantic reptiles? Since no recent remains of dinosaurs have ever been found, isn't this more likely?

And why are there no dinosaurs and human fossils in the same geological layers (if they were all killed at the same time)?
Answer: Already mentioned intelligence, people could hold out longer, i.e. rafts, grabbing on to things and floating, etc. A dead person would float also.

Even if humans were smart enough to make rafts etc., in a major disaster such as the flood described in the Bible there would be bound to be many humans who were caught unawares, didn't have the opportunity to build a raft, etc. (Noah needed to be given considerable warning, didn't he), who would therefore have died early on in the flood. Compare with what happened in the recent tsunami. And if a dead person would float, so would a dead dino.

More factors are involved but this is one, and I do not claim to be the top authority on this or any of the matters discussed.

Don't worry, you're doing pretty much as well as any of the others, given what you've got to work with.

 

[Mojo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Fossils

So where do all the other types of horse, dog etc. come from? All the different types have evolved? In (less than ) 6,000 years?

Actually, domestic dogs (I am jumping to the completely unsupported conclusion that they are what Nick was talking about) are not a good example here. Although they come in a variety of shapes and sizes they have all been bred by humans since the original domestication of dogs, and are all of the same species.

What Nick claimed is that not every species was taken onto the ark

You have a picture of taking every species, but this is not the case.

but that the limited number of species taken somehow subsequently gave rise to all the currently existing species. How this could happen without evolution is a good question, and if speciation happens rapidly enough for this to have occured, I would have thought that it would be observable within the timeframe within which evolutionary theory has been studied. And of course, creationists are always quick to point out that it hasn't.

 

[Ossai]

Nick Harman

And why are there no dinosaurs now? Did Noah just decide not to take them?
Answer: He took them on the ark as the bible says he took two of every kind. Not 2 of every dog, or every horse, but kind.

Just to repeat some of my earlier questions.

How did the animals receive care, i.e. fed, waste removal, etc
If only ‘kinds’ were taken on the ark, name and give classifications.
If only ‘kinds’ were taken on the ark, explain how they developed species diversity afterwards at such a lightning quick pace?

I have read that the average size of a dinosaur is a sheep, so not all dinosaurs are these massive creatures. So yes he took them and most dinosaurs are extinct.

You’re going to reference the sheep and boxcar bit in a moment here. How about actually working the math to that. Here are a few more reminders I’ve already posted.

How many animals did Noah take on the ark?
How did they all fit on there?
How big was the ark?
Work the math for the buoyancy of the ark with and without the animals.
Now work the math allowing only the building materials available at that time.
Work the math for the available internal spacing of the ark, remember support structure and subtract accordingly.

You will scoff at this, but there are many eyewitness accounts of dinosaur like creatures. Loch Ness, Lake Champlaign, etc. Pictures of dinosaurs have been shown to tribes in relatively unexplored places like the congo and places in Africa, and they say they have seen these animals.

Loch Ness is more than likely a hoax and tourist attraction. As for the rest – present the evidence, after all it shouldn’t be difficult to reference a reputable journal.

Last comment on the ark is that it took over 100 years to build and God gave the dimmensions in cubits, there have been some large skeletons found, we do not know how big Noah and his son's were, how big was that cubit? Again, not scientific fact I understand, but interesting things to think about.

From Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: cu·bit
Pronunciation: 'kyü-b&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin cubitum elbow, cubit
: any of various ancient units of length based on the length of the forearm from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger and usually equal to about 18 inches (45.7 centimeters)

and from the New International Version

Genesis 6:15
This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [ Hebrew 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high (about 140 meters long, 23 meters wide and 13.5 meters high)]

Answer: Already mentioned intelligence, people could hold out longer, i.e. rafts, grabbing on to things and floating, etc. A dead person would float also. More factors are involved but this is one, and I do not claim to be the top authority on this or any of the matters discussed.

It has already been pointed out that this response holds no water before you even answered the question. Now go back and actually read and attempt to answer the questions about this specifically.

The Egyptians built the pyramids, and what I have been told is that we couldn't do that today.

Who ever told you that lied to you. Go visit Las Vegas and see for yourself.

Look how much we have progressed in this past century (technologically speaking only, our world is getting more and more chaotic everyday, no one can deny this, so we are certainly not better off). So I am not sure what the issue is here.

Progressed yet, better off yes at least in western civilization (This is what I’m familiar with and won’t make assumptions about other civilizations) – or do you consider better medical technology, quality of life and an increased lifespan not to be an improvement?

cthiax

ETA that my husband read a bit of this exchange and commented, "How could we not build the pyramids today? We could FIRE THE PYRAMIDS INTO SPACE today."

Yes, but why bother. Just make a mockup even larger than the originals with a climate controlled interior, modern plumbing, charge people to stay there and give them a number of other reasons to extend their visit with such diversions as shows and gambling.

Ossai

 

[farmermike]

i

Nick is avoiding answering.

It looks like I may be the only person in here with a job and a family, I am lucky if I get an hour, and I am responding to many people w/many questions as opposed to 1 person. Give me a break.

In Christ,
Nick

Hi Nick,I may be straying a bit but having a job and family myself,I'd like to tie this in with the comment you made about the world being more chaotic and that we're no better off.My grandfather came from a family of nine children,he was the only one to make the age of 30.He in turn had four children,two of which survived.Enter the 30s and 40s antibiotics vaccinations etc..My father had two kids,I have two kids.No more need to have as many kids as possible to ensure some survive to have kids of their own.What about your job?Are you trying to survive from one season to the next from what you can hunt,grow or forage?Probably not .How did these changes come about?I'm sure that you give thanks to god for bestowing these blessings upon you.Looking around the world now and at history,do you really think god cares whether you have a safe trip to disneyworld or if your in a dung hut watching your family starve?If on of your children became terriby sick and you could either pray or take them to a hospital which would you do?Do you rely on the master physician in the sky who is never supposed to be tested or would you rely on a fellow human trained by science that begs to be tested again and again.
My whole point being that mainstream science is resposible for the things we all take for granted.Look at your home,job ,vehicle family.Who have not benefited in some way?Creationists are not taken seriously by mainstream science.their ideas do not hold up to the scrutiny of peer review simple as that.How can we benefit from science and reject parts that don't fit in with a belief?
But I guess Hutch answered that quite well.

 

[Ashles]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fossils

Actually, domestic dogs (I am jumping to the completely unsupported conclusion that they are what Nick was talking about) are not a good example here. Although they come in a variety of shapes and sizes they have all been bred by humans since the original domestication of dogs, and are all of the same species.

From one original pair? That degree of genetic variety from one breeding pair in 6,000 years?

 

[Mojo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fossils

From one original pair? That degree of genetic variety from one breeding pair in 6,000 years?

Now that you put it like that, yes it seems a little unlikely. Maybe they took a rottweiler and a chihuahua to get a bit of genetic variety. And maybe a little step-ladder for the chihuahua.

But they are nevertheless of the same species. Nick has claimed that not all species were taken on the ark, and that all current species somehow arose from the "kinds" that were taken. I am eagerly looking foreward to his explanation of how new species could have arisen without evolution having taken place.

As long as it isn't the "God dunnit" get-out, of course.

 

[Dr Adequate]

The fossil record does not support slow changes because there are no intermediate fossils. That is why one of your high priests Stephen Gould had to switch to punctuated equilibrium to explain the lack of fossil evidence.

Now, here's what Stephen Jay Gould has to say about that : "Our confidence that evolution occurred centers upon three general arguments… The third argument is more direct: transitions are often found in the fossil record…"Scientific creationism" is a self-contradictory, nonsense phrase… Faced with these facts of evolution and the philosophical bankruptcy of their own position, creationists rely upon distortion and innuendo to buttress their rhetorical claim. If I sound sharp or bitter, indeed I am—for I have become a major target of these practices… it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms."

(ETA : My bold.)

Nick, doesn't it worry you that your arguments are based on lies? Like I said, they're not your lies --- it's not deliberate deceit on your part--- you've just swallowed this fundie hogwash without thinking about it. Or trying to find out if it's true. But that is culpable too. If you didn't invent the lie about Gould, and you didn't, you're still helping to spread this lying gossip without bothering to discover if it's true or false. Next time, before you post a "fact" which you've got from some fundie propaganda tract --- just check and see if it's true.