ID/Creationism - How fast were extinctions?

[Throg]

They no longer hold it to be literal. They say it is "inspired" by God in some cases, similar to poetry, music or painting. This also makes the interpretation of it an inspiration by God, which is also used as an argument against non-believers because they, because of their lack of faith, would be devoid of this inspiration. So there's the catch 22: you have to believe in God to be capable of understanding the inspired word of God. Of course, this defense technique is not limited to the more liberal believers. Fundamentalists also react this way when confronted with some of the contradictions in their beliefs.

I would go a step further and say that other types of believers tend to behave this way, as well--always looking for a way out of any contradictions that may exist in a given belief.

That is rather a good "get out of jail free" card. I can't see particularly why one would need the Bible if already has direct access to his inspiration but perhaps, lacking inspiration I wouldn't. Has God split his message into two parts, the encoded word and the inspirational key to unlock it, or is the Bible in this instance something akin to a fetish - a focus for inspiration?

 

[drkitten]

That is rather a good "get out of jail free" card. I can't see particularly why one would need the Bible if already has direct access to his inspiration but perhaps, lacking inspiration I wouldn't. Has God split his message into two parts, the encoded word and the inspirational key to unlock it, or is the Bible in this instance something akin to a fetish - a focus for inspiration?

Perhaps a ladder? You need to use a ladder to reach a high spot -- but once you've reached the spot, you can throw the ladder away. (And, yes, I know that metaphor is not original. Wittgenstein used it first : "My propositions serve as elucidations in the following way: anyone who understands them eventually recognizes them as nonsensical, when he has used them -- as steps -- to climb up beyond them. (He must, so to speak, throw away the ladder after he has climbed up it.)")

 

[FreeChile]

Perhaps a ladder? You need to use a ladder to reach a high spot -- but once you've reached the spot, you can throw the ladder away. (And, yes, I know that metaphor is not original. Wittgenstein used it first : "My propositions serve as elucidations in the following way: anyone who understands them eventually recognizes them as nonsensical, when he has used them -- as steps -- to climb up beyond them. (He must, so to speak, throw away the ladder after he has climbed up it.)")

Of course, that's assuming the ladder doesn't have any missing or broken rungs, or rungs that prevent ascension. If so, the ladder itself is useless. I don't know about you, but I prefer to use an elevator for very high places.

Also, it assumes the floor you're going to actually exists.

 

[Gr8wight]

You guys are all falling into the trap of attempting to apply scientific reasoning to justify religious dogma. The position of the creationists can be summed up by one single biblical quotation:

With God, all things are possible.

So, for a creationist, the answer to any question is, "because."

 

[pupdog]

How fast were extinctions? Some were faster than others. Certainly, of the extinctions of the past 100 years or so, some were pretty quick; those in Australia were probably among the fastest.

But the original question has problems. Dendrochronology provides dating back to about 12,000 years. That's already twice as old as the 6,000 years commonly given by some Biblical literalists. It's even older than most Young Earth Creationists are willing to begrudge.

Nevertheless, in the paleontology literature, I think there's figures for approximations of rates of "background extinctions" in papers dealing with episodes of accelerated extinction, such as at the Permian-Triassic boundary (the really big one), or the Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary (the popular one).

To try to fit extinction rates into YEC chronology is pretty pointless, but several writers have noted that speciation must have occurred at an exceedingly rapid pace if the Noachin Flood Myth were true.

 

[T'ai Chi]

There is no mention in the bible or records from old civilizations of prehistoric creatures.

Well, as it goes, God created all things.

Giants, lizards, and bohemeths come up in the Bible I recall.

 

[Mojo]

But the original question has problems. Dendrochronology provides dating back to about 12,000 years. That's already twice as old as the 6,000 years commonly given by some Biblical literalists. It's even older than most Young Earth Creationists are willing to begrudge.

Ah yes, they will say, but God could have created the trees with all those extra rings to test our faith...

 

[pupdog]

Are you saying God is deceitful and not to be trusted?

 

[pupdog]

Whoops, excuse me, since that's not your argument, but the Creationist argument, it's the God-loving Creationists who would be claiming that God is deceitful and not to be trusted.

 

[Throg]

Are you saying God is deceitful and not to be trusted?

You have missed the true subtlety and horror of the fundamentalist position: God is deceitful and he is to be trusted.

 

[Correa Neto]

[1inChrist mode]
Fossils, dendrochronology, lists of ancient sumerian kings, geochronology, the light of stars, these are all creations of SATAN!!! He uses logic and reasoning to move you away from God and doom your imortal sould to HELLFIRE
[/1inChrist mode]

That´s what a true fundie will tell you.

 

[Mojo]

You have missed the true subtlety and horror of the fundamentalist position: God is deceitful and he is to be trusted.

He is also omniscient and omnipotent but not to be held responsible for anything that goes wrong.

 

[Throg]

He is also omniscient and omnipotent but not to be held responsible for anything that goes wrong.

Nice work if you can get it.

 

[Nick Harman]

Fossils

Hello everyone,


This is my first time in this forum. I am a biblical creationist. I believe the bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallable word of the only living God.

Genesis is the historical account of how God created the heavens and the earth. This account has no problem with fossils as some of your posts indicate. I believe a billions of years belief has more problems with fossils. The bible records the historical event of a world wide flood God used to judge the wicked people on the earth. If this is true, what would you expect to find? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth. That is exactly what we find. If the layers we find were periods of time, how could we have all these fossils? If an animal dies and is left to lay, it will be eaten or decay and there will be nothing left of it. So with out a ww flood, we would not have all the fossils that we are finding today.

The problem isn't the facts that scientists study, the problem is the interpretation. There are many scientists, who are biblical creationists, contrary to what many people believe (I can provide a good list if anyone is interested). A creationist has the same evidence the evolutionist has, it just has a different world view to interpret the evidence. A creationist has the historical account of God's word to interpret the evidence. An evolutionist has only his imagination and prior opinions of fallable men to interpret the same evidence. (i.e. uniformitarianism, geologic column, dating methods with assumptions, etc.)

That is all for now, I look forward to hearing from you all.

Serving a risen Savior,
Nick Harman

 

[Nick Harman]

"Pre-historic" creature in the bible

Here is your "pre-historic" animal

Job 40:15-18 (NKJV)
"Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you;
He eats grass like an ox.
[16] See now, his strength is in his hips,
And his power is in his stomach muscles.
[17] He moves his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.
[18] His bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.

Many comprimiser have said this is a hippo or a elephant. There tails do not move like a cedar.

Bible makes many mentions of dragons. The word dinosaur was not invented until the 1800's so you wouldn't find it in the bible. Many ancient drawings have pictures drawn of men and dinosaurs together.

Serving a risen Savior,
Nick Harman

 

[Ashles]

Re: Fossils

The bible records the historical event of a world wide flood God used to judge the wicked people on the earth. If this is true, what would you expect to find? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth. That is exactly what we find. If the layers we find were periods of time, how could we have all these fossils? If an animal dies and is left to lay, it will be eaten or decay and there will be nothing left of it. So with out a ww flood, we would not have all the fossils that we are finding today.

Hello and welcome. You will be popular here I assure you (assuming you are a serious poster).

Firstly I do not quite understand what you are saying. If a flood has killed millions of things why are their remains not all found in the same geological layer? Fossils are spread throughout layers.

And why are there no dinosaurs now? Did Noah just decide not to take them?

And why are there no dinosaurs and human fossils in the same geological layers (if they were all killed at the same time)?

"If an animal dies and is left to lay, it will be eaten or decay and there will be nothing left of it"
That might be what you would assume, but that is not always correct.
Here's a sinmple site that explains how fossils form.

Also, another question, if Adam and Eve gained knowledge, why were ancient people so primitive? They had stone and bone weapons and sketched crude cave paintings. Is that how Adam and Eve were when they left the garden of Eden?

 

[Ossai]

Nick Harman
Just a quick list of questions pulled from here and elsewhere. I’ve tried to remove duplicates. The one question I really want you to answer is exactly what do you believe? Is the bible to be taken literally or figuratively or a mixed bag, and how old do you believe the earth is?

I’ve got a few thousand more questions once you’ve hit these high points.

The whole silly flood thing.
Where did the water come from?
Where did the water go?

How many animals did Noah take on the ark?
How did they all fit on there?
How big was the ark?
Work the math for the buoyancy of the ark with and without the animals.
Now work the math allowing only the building materials available at that time.

How did the animals receive care, i.e. fed, waste removal, etc
If only ‘kinds’ were taken on the ark, name and give classifications.
If only ‘kinds’ were taken on the ark, explain how they developed species diversity afterwards at such a lightning quick pace.


From MRC_Hans
Parasites. How did parasites, many of which cause life-threatening diseases exist while only Adam and Eve were on Earth? Did they have all those parasites? If yes, how did they suvive? Same during the Flood; did Noah and his family host all these parasites? (Of course, same applies to animal parasites)

Bacteria and vira. Essentially the same as parasites, but some fundies are in denial about infectuous diseases (they might, for instance, be homeopaths), so it is useful to keep micro- and macroscopic parasites separated.

Starlight: We can observe stars that are far more than 6000 LY away. How can their light reach us?

Food-chains: This is one for ID'ers. ID'ers modify the timescale of genesis, and acknowledge that creation may have taken a very long time, but that doesn't fly; nearly all life forms are part of big ecosystems, food-chains. Miss one part of an ecosystem for any amount of time, and the whole system breaks down.

From voidx
Another problem with the flood has to do with marine wildlife. Did the sea's rise, or was it all from rain. At which point was the flood mostly freshwater or saltwater? If saltwater, then it covered the whole earth, so how did we end up with so many freshwater sources, and where did the freshwater fish come from, they'd all have died in saltwater over that period of time. Not to mention marine fish. Even if there was enough water to cover all the land, a flood of this size would drastically change the salinity of the oceans, again causing a massive die out of most marine wildlife.

From Pyrts
Well, written text in Egypt goes back to about 3,000 BC (5,000 years ago.) If you go into artifacts and non-written images(designs ... "clan markings") , then we can date with confidence to about 11,000 years ago in the US and about 30,000 years ago in Europe (small bone carving.)

You can really drive them nuts with the Sumerian King List, which does list "The Flood" (not Noah's flood to them, but it could be argued that it IS): http://www.jameswbell.com/a002kinglist.html

Ossai

 

[Darat]

Re: Fossils

Hello everyone,


This is my first time in this forum. I am a biblical creationist. I believe the bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallable word of the only living God.

...snip...

Welcome to the forum.

Inerrant? How many of each creature did God tell Noah to take into the arc? How long did the flood last?

 

[LW]

Well, written text in Egypt goes back to about 3,000 BC (5,000 years ago.) If you go into artifacts and non-written images(designs ... "clan markings") , then we can date with confidence to about 11,000 years ago in the US and about 30,000 years ago in Europe (small bone carving.)

During my last Summer holiday I went through the king lists of The Chronicle of the Pharaohs counting regnal years. The results are posted here.

 

[LW]

Of course, same Aborigines have an unbroken history of some 40,000 years....

No, they don't.

There's very strong physical evidence that Aborgines have been present in Australia for those 40,000 years but that is different from there being an unbroken history for the time since the term implies some sort of written accounts for events. What Aborgines have is40,000 years of prehistory.