ID/Creationism - How fast were extinctions?

[steenkh]

Re: Bible

I will say this - that Judeo-Christian and Islamic culture has arguably given us a wealth of great art and music. Who can fail to be roused by the chords of Handel's 'Messiah' and 'Solomon and Sheba', or the strains of Haydn's 'The Creation' or Stainer's 'Crucifixion'?

That is true, but is this a result of the religion? I have often noted how lame the current batch of religious music sounds compared to the religious music of a few centuries ago. It seems to me that many talented composers were working in the religious field just a few centuries ago, but such people are exploring other kinds of music today (sorry, I do not know Stainer).

 

[H3LL]

Re: Bible

I will say this - that Judeo-Christian and Islamic culture has arguably given us a wealth of great art and music. Who can fail to be roused by the chords of Handel's 'Messiah' and 'Solomon and Sheba', or the strains of Haydn's 'The Creation' or Stainer's 'Crucifixion'?

Patsy.

Not exclusively Abrahamic religions, but many eastern religions and Greek and Roman mythology have inspired as well as inspiring works in their own regions.

More to the point concerning these old composers and artists:

Who were their frequent sponsors? The Cistine Chapel springs to mind, among others.

Where did the money come from?

Exchange for goods? No.

Exchange for service? Possibly a feel-good placebo, or fear. Little else.

With regrettably few exceptions the money was gleaned from the poor (most people are poorer than churches) with little in return other than fear, threats and fairy tales.

Who benefits from the thousands of pieces of art and manuscripts locked away gathering dust in the vaults of the Vatican?

The old joke about sharing the congregation money between church and god springs to mind:

"We throw it in the air. What He catches He keeps."

It would seem, if steenkh's thoughts are so, that even the small scraps that used to fall from the table to the arts has all but disappeared with money better spent on their own power and political campaigns to under-mine science.

As with a god that loves his fruit more than his children, the churches love their dogma and cash more than their <strike>cash-cows</strike> congregation.

 

[songstress]

Bible

Steenkh and H3LL,

I would agree with you both.

H3LL - Most of the payment for music and art came from either the Church or the Monarchy via taxes and generous benefactors. In the days before the Welfare State, the poor were 'provided for' by the 'good' grace of the Church. I can remember my mum telling me that even as late as 1936, people could still ask for 'alms' at the church and be given a bag of coal and blankets.

However, like all these man-made adminsitrations, people were means-tested and those thought too weathly were denied aid and often ended up in the poor house, or died on the streets.

Patsy.

 

[Ossai]

steenkh

It seems to me that many talented composers were working in the religious field just a few centuries ago,

I’ve heard it a few places but not checked, but didn’t the church have power over some composers? I.E. compose for us or not at all –due to pressure the church could apply or starvation.

Ossai

 

[songstress]

Bible

Absolutely true, Ossai. This was another example of slavery.

Handel also wrote some beautiful secular music, but he is more famous for his religious muses.


Patsy.

 

[steenkh]

steenkh
I’ve heard it a few places but not checked, but didn’t the church have power over some composers? I.E. compose for us or not at all –due to pressure the church could apply or starvation.

I do not think so. The church was just a sponsor like any other, but the western church actually invented the musical notation so that for a long time the only written music was church music.

In the middle ages the church repeatedly issued prohibitions against using polyphony or fast notes, but that only shows what little influence conservatively minded clerics had on the music: The prohibitions had to be repeated, and eventually polyphony and fast notes also made their entry into church music.

With Palestrina we see an attempt to fix the style once and for all, not in form of prohibitions but in the form of beautiful pieces of music that other composers tried to emulate or surpass.

The branch of music that we call classical music split off from folk music already in the middle ages, but all the time lots of music was written that we could call folk music, and this kind of music was only rarely written down and we do not think of it when we think of old music. The lyrics for this music was often spiteful of the powerful church and the church cannot have been able to block it, or it would have tried to.

Secular music (of the classical kind) was very similar to religious music in the middle ages, but from the Renaissance the two kinds split, and only meet again in the 18th century.

Over time, the growing wealth and sophistication among the nobility (and in the 19th century the bourgeoisie) attracted a lot of composers, but I do not see any evidence that the church dictated or tried to dictate how this music should sound.

Edited to add: Händel is a good example of a composer who simply worked for those who could pay, and of course his clerical masters had their own ideas of how the music they commisioned should sound, but the same was true for his secular masters. Händel was a commercial succes because he could satisfy those wishes.

 

[Garrette]

I've sung in many choirs performing classical, religious music and agree that much of it is stunningly beautiful.

I also agree with the others that the beauty is only incidental to its religiosity.

About 25 years ago I bought a cassette which I have since lost called "The Blessing Way."

It was spiritual Navajo music, some of it traditional and some newly composed.

It remains among the most beautiful music I have ever heard and I regret losing it.

 

[Soapy Sam]

You migh enjoy the novel of the same name by Tony Hillerman.
He has written several about the Navajo Tribal Police. Excellent yarns with some fascinating cultural insights.

Ossai- You might equate the situation in European music till about 1800 with today. To be successful, you must be in the industry. Back then the people with cash to support professional musicians (and artists generally) were landowners and the church.

Doubtless many traditionalists lived, died and were forgotten because the music they made failed to attract patrons or a mass audience. Same applies now.

It would seem reasonable that the person paying the piper calls the tune- hence most music was religious because that's where the money came from. I'd call it capitalism rather than slavery.

By the way, I just came in at the end- what has this to do with extinctions?

 

[steenkh]

By the way, I just came in at the end- what has this to do with extinctions?

We are just idling time until it is definite that Nick has gone and the thread is dead.

 

[Ashles]

We are just idling time until it is definite that Nick has gone and the thread is dead.

Thread's dead baby. Thread's dead.

 

[Garrette]

Soapy Sam,

I've read several Hillerman novels and always enjoyed them.

I lived in Arizona a while and find the desert surprisingly beautiful and comforting. Did some visiting with Navajo while there, though not as extensive as I'd have liked.

 

[farmermike]

Thread's dead baby. Thread's dead.

Really too bad!It was a great thread .I just wonder what Nick's opinion of the whole thing would be.Did his house of cards remain intact with not a single card being disturbed?Was he frustrated at not being able to talk sense to all those deluded evolutionists and walked away in disgust?Or could there be the faint glimmer of a critical thought process starting in regards to some of the absurdities in which he claims to believe,and he's spending a week in deep thought.I guess only Nick knows the answer to that.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Garrette- I lived in Arizona a while and find the desert surprisingly beautiful and comforting.

Yes. I know exactly what you mean. It had a similar effect on me, in summer and even more in winter.

I can understand how people could become a part of that country, in body and mind. I imagine Hillerman is affected in the same way. I suspect it either has that effect on one very strongly, or not. Leaphorn could leave if he had too, but never Chee.

 

[Ashles]

Really too bad!It was a great thread .I just wonder what Nick's opinion of the whole thing would be.Did his house of cards remain intact with not a single card being disturbed?Was he frustrated at not being able to talk sense to all those deluded evolutionists and walked away in disgust?Or could there be the faint glimmer of a critical thought process starting in regards to some of the absurdities in which he claims to believe,and he's spending a week in deep thought.I guess only Nick knows the answer to that.

Debating scientifically with a creationist can only ever lead to the creationist either admitting that his information (gleaned from sites like AiG) is incorrect, or flatly stating that "God just did it", or by them disappearing.

Obviously their 'evidence' and 'information' will never stand up to analysis by paople who actually know what they are talking about, or a sem-educated amateur.

Still Nick hung around for longer than usual.

Will it help him to think a little more critically about the lies he has been told? Who knows. I just hope he realises that you are actually allowed to believe in God without having to accept literally every single word the Bible says.
Because as we have seen, with the level of inconsistency and frankly bizarre messages contained within, that would be pretty much impossible.

 

[Garrette]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam:
Yes. I know exactly what you mean. It had a similar effect on me, in summer and even more in winter.

You're telling me we allow Scots in the American West?

Whatever are we coming to?

 

[H3LL]

As this thread walks quietly into the sunset, a quick Q on something steenkh said:

....I do not see any evidence that the church dictated or tried to dictate how this music should sound.

I only know this as rumour or possible hype, but I was told that the notes used by Black Sabbath in their little ditty "Black Sabbath" were expressly forbidden in that order by the church as being satanic. Sometimes this was embelished with the church threatening punishment for writing/playing them.

I have no idea if this is true, but you seem to know your subject and wondered if you could shed some light on its veracity?

The tabs:


bb 44

tr~~~~~~
-----||--------|--------|
-T---||--------|--------|
-A---||--------|--------|
-B---||-----5--|--------|
-----||--5-----|--4(5)--|
-----||--3-----|--------|

 

[BPScooter]

Ancient musicology in brief

OK, the deal is that most of what we all humans hear as 'nice' in music is a consonant interval, a 2:1 or 3:2 or 4:5 kind of harmonious dealing between two frequencies.

One of the most "not nice" things is a tritone, or the interval between, say, C natural and F sharp. Six semitones equal tempered, I think. Augmented fourth or diminished fifth. Do-re-mi ***fa**** or Do-ti-la ***sol***

One of the characteristics of "jazzy" or "bluesy" playing is to intentionally go high on the fourth or low on the fifth as you sing or play. Piano players can't do it, so they fake it by playing two notes at once or sliding quickly off one or the other. Singers, string players, have an easier time. Trombones can do it. The other instruments, trumpets, clarinets, etc. have to learn to bend their notes with embouchure (mouth position) and that takes some skill and time to learn. Guitar players can slide their fingers, jazzy-like, but most learn to bend the string pretty fast.

In the old days of music, the tritone was hard to hear in your head and hard to sing and hold. The old time church singers called it the 'devil in music.'

Black Sabbath, in particular Tony and Geezer, probably didn't know much of that when they played it. I think they had some fine big amplifiers and some time on their hands, and they discovered for the umpteenth time how wicked weird it sounds if you play E and B flat at the same moment.

 

[H3LL]

Re: Ancient musicology in brief

Black Sabbath, in particular Tony and Geezer, probably didn't know much of that when they played it. I think they had some fine big amplifiers and some time on their hands, and they discovered for the umpteenth time how wicked weird it sounds if you play E and B flat at the same moment.

Interesting. Thanks.

I have always thought it record company hype/rumour. My opinion still the same but your info adds a little more weight.

Still not certain though.

 

[delphi_ote]

Re: Ancient musicology in brief

... they discovered for the umpteenth time how wicked weird it sounds if you play E and B flat at the same moment.

tr~~~~~~
-----||--------|--------|
-T---||--------|--------|
-A---||--------|--------|
-B---||-----5--|--------|
-----||--5-----|--4(5)--|
-----||--3-----|--------|

But that's a G and a Db!

In the equal tempered scale, the interval between a E and a Bb is TOTALLY different than a G and Db! They would beat against each other at a totally different rate! My two "cents." (pun intended!)

Don't forget that tremlo, either! Hehe...

Nice post, Scooter! Sorry I couldn't resist being goofy.

 

[BPScooter]

Thanks!

Heya- thanks for the smiles, good to know that all my music degrees paid off at last!

Actually equal-temperament is defined by a 100-cent semitone, 12 per octave, so on that level it doesn't matter whether it's E to Bb, or F# to C, etc. That's the compromise, other tuning systems are more centered on a particular tone/frequency as "do" and then define other pitches from that, leading to different sized intervals depending. So if you're in some kind of mean-tone or Pythagorean tuning system, it sounds great if you play in the key you started in, but modulations get ever more bizarre sounding. This has been the challenge for keyboards, lutes, etc. in trying to do what singers, violinists, etc. do naturally-- temper the intervals depending on their melodic direction, harmonic function, etc.

That being said, some people do believe that the absolute pitch level, where "do" is, is really meaningful (Scriabin, I think, was one). Somehow F major is pastoral, but whether that's just because of Beethoven's 6th symphony or something inherent in "do is F, major tonality" I can't say. Lyndon Larouche seems to think that the A=440 Hz pitch standard is the root of lots of problems, social and psychological. I say no more.

Way esoteric, but just about anyone with regular "conversational" acquaintance with western music has no problem telling "in tune" from "out of tune" but when you try to pull that apart a bit, it gets really complicated. Kind of like trying to figure out how a natural language works, utterly complex but somehow we are able to do it.

So back to Tony and Geezer--I'll pull out my old vinyl and do some research. I'm pretty sure that when Randy Rhodes quoted the "Black Sabbath" motive in his guitar solo on "Flying High Again" it was in E. But Randy tuned down to Eb, I think, ... hmm... now I have a weekend project.

Medieval and Renaissance music theory had a lot of rules and ways of handling what they considered dissonant intervals. "Musica ficta" or "false music" was something that a player or singer would do that wasn't notated to avoid or soften the arrival and departure from dissonances, a sort of ornament I suppose. We really don't know because there are no CDs of how they sang it, but there are treatises. That's probably the source of the "diabolus in musica" label for the tritone. As far as I know nobody was excommunicated or possessed by Auld Nick for dabbling with the interval.

Long live the tritone!