ID/Creationism - How fast were extinctions?

[Nick Harman]

All those posts and all the links and information, questions and responses from everyone........

And this is the best you can come up with?

Well I'm convinced. Sign me up for YEC.


If it's all too much for you, just concentrate on Dr. A's last post.

He's taken the time to put most of the thread in one place for you. We know you are busy.

Go on...Have a go.

There's even numbers for you so we know which comment you are dealing with.

At the very least, it's common courtesy. Or is that not a christian "virtue"?

Nick: I will be until next week sometime, I will look at that list of questions and answer as much as I can. After that I would like for you all to answer some of my questions. Talk to you all next week. Have a wonderful weekend.

Serving a risen Savior,
Nick Harman

 

[Phaycops]

Nick: I will be until next week sometime, I will look at that list of questions and answer as much as I can. After that I would like for you all to answer some of my questions. Talk to you all next week. Have a wonderful weekend.

Serving a risen Savior,
Nick Harman

Hm, yes, but will you actually try to read and understand our answers?

Ah, well, no skin off my back -- I'm out of the loop till next Wednesday. Have a great weekend, unless you live in my neck of the woods, where it is supposed to SNOW

 

[Dr Adequate]

I like Nick.

There are millions of people who think much the same things as he does, but how many of them are debating it on a barely-moderated forum where they're heavily outnumbered?

Also Nick, unlike various ghost-hunters, "healers" and the like, doesn't waste his time telling us that because we disagree with him, we must all be insincere. This is a rare virtue in a YEC. He may have read, in his fundie tracts, how Evil-ution is a Conspiracy to Get Rid Of God, but obviously he doesn't believe it, or at least not of us.

In fact, he's spent only a zillionth of the time explaining "You only think that because...." that people do on the Politics forum.

He's been both politer to us, collectively, than we have to him, and perhaps less touchy.

This is meant to be an educational forum. Here we are lucidly debating an issue which has millions of people on each side. That's got to be better, from the educational point of view, than talking about miraculous pretzels.

He hasn't mentioned the second law of thermodynamics. Yet.

Or bleedin' Piltdown Man.

He's not, that I recall, raised the same straw man twice.

In spite of what one poster predicted, he hasn't turned into 1inChrist. Indeed, it might be a good idea if he had a word with 1inChrist.

He is, in short, the nicest YEC you could possibly wish for.

I'd like to repeat my invitation to Nick --- he should bring his friends from RL or other forums. As it is, you can understand he's a bit swamped with all those unanswered questions.

I'm just pleased that we can have a dialogue.

Also, Nick, you're over fifty posts and can have an avatar. I'm afraid being the letter A is taken, but I'm sure you'll find something else.

 

[Nex]

I like Nick. [...]
He is, in short, the nicest YEC you could possibly wish for.

I'll say. I agree -- he's done really well considering the onslaught here. I mean, he could do better, but not a shabby start all in all. He's trying, in his own way.

Practicing a little empathy here, if I were in his shoes I think I may have lost my temper already. How many YECs just lose their cool and flee screaming, anyway? Just about every one, as far as I can gather.

... I'm afraid being the letter A is taken, but I'm sure you'll find something else.

Turnips are taken. Get yer own root veggie!!

And Nick, I look forward to your upcoming posts. I've been following this very closely even though I've posted little. This thread is very, very interesting.

 

[H3LL]

Nick: I will be until next week sometime, I will look at that list of questions and answer as much as I can. After that I would like for you all to answer some of my questions. Talk to you all next week......*snip*

To assist Nick, as he is so short of time, I have collected his questions that we apparently (Edit: This may be unfair. See Dr. A's post after this one) have not answered.

I will admit it was difficult as Nick took some time to get to grips with the forum's formatting (quite understandable) and I may have missed one, but I don't believe I have.

Many of Nicks post consist of statements, such as "This is so, because the bible/god says so". These are not questions, but members have also taken the time to refute the statements or asked for/shown evidence.

I have added my own comments in parenthesis but the skeptical can check and correct any errors I may have made.

Please Note: I'm GMT +8, so my times may not be the same as yours.

Here are Nick's Questions:

<hr>
04-05-2005 08:43 PM

The bible records the historical event of a world wide flood God used to judge the wicked people on the earth. If this is true, what would you expect to find?

(Loaded question)
<hr>
04-08-2005 02:32 AM

are you implying that all layers are angular unconformities?

(Answered with references)
<hr>
04-08-2005 02:29 AM

fishbob, is all your material original?

(Rhetorical question)
<hr>
04-08-2005 02:26 AM

Do we not have tribes of people today that would fit this prehistoric mold you are referring to?

(Rhetorical?)
<hr>
04-10-2005 04:03 AM

Do any of you believe in God?

(Answered)
<hr>
04-10-2005 03:59 AM

Evolution scoffs at the flood, but is all about life evolving from non-living material. Where is your science to even come close to supporting that idea.

(Answered in detail)
<hr>
04-10-2005 03:29 AM

Now, can I ask a question about YEC?

(This was followed by a statement. There was no question.)
<hr>
04-10-2005 (My Error: Time Missed)

What change would you be referring to?

(Question refered to: "And why the time of the flood changes in the story?" )
<hr>
04-10-2005 01:18 AM

Did I miss a link you had put up? Did you have an article you wanted me to read?

(Directions given to pertinent information)
<hr>
04-11-2005 08:38 PM

[Life had to start somewhere].......What is the best evidence to support a naturalistic evolution of life?

(Answered in detail and also informed that the origin of life is not evolution.)
<hr>
04-10-2005 10:28 AM

I asked you where was the conflicting account to save me time searching it out, or do you know?

(Answered before and after this question by Darat, among others)
<hr>
04-19-2005 07:49 AM

Would you say that these bones prove they are turning into a whale, or is it more appropriate to say that many scientists believe this?

(Answered in detail with links and AiG evidence shown to be out-of-date and cherry-picked)
<hr>
04-18-2005 08:46 PM

What in the text of Genesis would make one not take it literally as a historical account?

(Answered in detail and biblical text quoted that are contradictory)
<hr>
04-19-2005 07:53 AM

This [man in the same fossil layers as dinosaurs] is an assumption and I am asking you if you know this.

(Answered in detail. Nick gave fossil footprints to support his statement and even AiG says don't use that argument.))
<hr>
04-19-2005 09:04 PM

Do you have the references, I would like to see.

(several references given)
<hr>
04-19-2005 08:42 PM

I think another similar "exception" is in rabbits. I have read that rabbits from different regions have become unable to breed. Take a 3rd region of rabbits and the other 2 can mate with them but the 1st 2 can not mate with each other. They are all still the same kind of animal. This case and the mule are the only 2 that I have read about like this. Are you aware of others?

(Answered in great detail)
<hr>


Edited to add Nick's quote about not answering his questions. Corrected format error

 

[H3LL]

The Babel myth is brazenly contradicted by studies of the evolution/travel of langauges, and denies the existence of whole peoples and cultures!

The Babel myth is also contradicted in the bible.

It states clearly that there were three languages, then changes its mind to one (Cue: Tower building), then there were lots (a big number so not mentioned).

It seems god has as much trouble counting animals as he does with languages.

No wonder he has so much difficulty with measurement and shapes.

Biblical counting must be fun:

One (or three or two), two (or seven or one), three (or one),(nothing between 3 and 4), four (or the population of Nod), five, six, seven (or two), eight, nine, ten (or eleven, twelve or thirteen), eleven (see ten), twelve (see ten), thirteen (see ten).
That is:

1, 2, 3, 2, 7, 1, 3, 1, 4, 153652, 5, 6, 7, 2, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 11, 10, 12, 13, 12, 10, 11, 13, 13, 10, 11, 12.....

I made a guess at the population of Nod, but with these numbers it hardly seems to matter.

It seems to get easier after 13.

Unless you know different.....

 

[Dr Adequate]

H3LL ---

I think you may have over-reacted.

When he said : "I will look at that list of questions and answer as much as I can. After that I would like for you all to answer some of my questions", Nick didn't mean, I think, by "some of my questions" to imply "some questions which I've asked you time after time and which you've not answered" --- which would be wrong. I think he meant "some questions which I'm going to ask you when I've answered some of yours".

I don't think that Nick has ever been deliberately unfair in this thread --- he's been accidentally insulting, but that's a different thing altogether.

 

[Ceinwyn]

H3LL ---

I think you may have over-reacted.

When he said : "I will look at that list of questions and answer as much as I can. After that I would like for you all to answer some of my questions", Nick didn't mean, I think, by "some of my questions" to imply "some questions which I've asked you time after time and which you've not answered" --- which would be wrong. I think he meant "some questions which I'm going to ask you when I've answered some of yours".

I don't think that Nick has ever been deliberately unfair in this thread --- he's been accidentally insulting, but that's a different thing altogether. He's OK.

No offense Dr. A. but I disagree.

I think Nick has had plenty of time to answer questions. He seems to have a good grip on his own beliefs, so why is it so difficult for him to defend those beliefs?

No, I think it's the usual. He can't answer, so he dissembles and says he "will answer questions of your questions of my questions blahblahbbhablah".

I'm tired of it, personally. I'd love for a fundamentalist/creationist to just stick around and really give us the reasons why, what, when. But much as I predict (sorry KRAMER) It will never happen. Ever.

edited.

 

[H3LL]

...I think you may have over-reacted.....

You are possibly right, but it is unclear. I think it was the shock of becoming visible all of a sudden.

Either way, both angles are covered.

The post was intended to assist both sides. This is a long thread. With your summary post and mine I hope it helps.

Nick is trying, just not very hard.

He is, however, one of our more interesting YEC/ID posters.

 

[H3LL]

.....I think you may have over-reacted.....

I managed to get an edit into the offending post pointing to yours.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Well, Ceinwyn, this was your first and only previous post on this thread.

You're a loony. A bona fide loony.

Why anyone even gives you the time of day, I don't know.

I think you're wrong, and I think you're wrong in your latest post, and if I was feeling more energetic right now I'd rip it to shreds, but luckily we don't need to argue about it --- Nick will be back on Monday or thereabouts.

 

[Ceinwyn]

Well, Ceinwyn, this was your first and only previous post on this thread. I think you're wrong, and I think you're wrong in your latest post, and if I was feeling more energetic right now I'd rip it to shreds, but luckily we don't need to argue about it --- Nick will be back on Monday or thereabouts.

Ok. See you on Monday.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Bump.

Meanwhile, Christian has started another thread on the Flood. That list of Frequently Unanswered Questions came in handy --- many thanks to all the people whose questions I cut and pasted.

 

[songstress]

Fossils

Ossai,

'I can't remember the process by which minerals replace bone.'

It's called 'permineralisation.' When a body dies in water and silt/sand forms in layers, most of the soft tissue decays (not always - some soft tissue can survive, depending on conditions - some rocks contain imprints of dinosaur skin.) The bones are eventually replaced with minerals carried in the mineral-bearing water. The process is ongoing over millions of years, and eventually the dead animal ends up as a fossil. Fossilisation works better when the animal dies in water rather than land because burial usually occurs more rapidly.

Nick Harman,

Evolution - all modern species began life with a common ancestor. This is true of humans. The human 'root' was an eel-like creature with a bony skull and had very good eyesight. It lived in marine conditions at a time when the ancestors of modern insects were huge and very scary-looking creatures. However, our ancestor was very wily and managed to dodge most predators (otherwise we wouldn't be here.) When conditions changed and the land dried up, our ancestor was better adapted to land conditions whereas many marine species died out. We have retained the bony skull and the good eyesight. Evidence for this ancestor can be found in the Burgess Shales, a layer of which composes the Appalachian Mountains (amongst other mountain ranges.)

An aside - man didn't 'come from monkeys.' Monkeys have their own diverse branch. They have the common ancestor that man has, (the bony eel with good eyesight) but as time passed, monkeys, apes and other primates developed their own evolutionary route. Human embryos resemble rabbit and fish embryos, evidence that man's nearest cousins all have the same ancestor. If you need evidence for insects' ancestry, look at a common woodlouse or horseshoe crab and then look at a picture of a trilobite. Notice the similarities.

Evolution is an ongoing process. It is a proven science. I am a trained geologist, and I still wonder at the world around me.

Love,
Patsy.

 

[Ossai]

songstress

'I can't remember the process by which minerals replace bone.'

It's called 'permineralisation.'

Thanks – it’s been a while since college geology.

Ossai

 

[songstress]

Fossils

Hi Ossai,

Not at all. You are welcome.

I re-read my post. During the Ordovician Period (approximately 400 ma ago) most of the life on Earth lived in marine environments. Ancestors of insects were so huge that only a water-bourne existence could support them. I wanted to make this clear because my post doesn't do that.

I think it was Hans (correct me if I'm wrong) who said that ancient whales had legs. That is absolutely correct. They were originally land-dwellers but became so huge that water was the only medium that could support their great weight. Modern whales' flippers are vestigial 'legs.' This is a reverse example of huge sea creatures having to adapt to land (i.e. insects.) Insects had to become less bulky and heavy and over time became smaller.

Nature is far more interesting than any religious text could ever offer. It proves what a wonderful world we live in.

Love,
Patsy.

 

[Ashles]

Interesting posts. Thanks songstress.

 

[songstress]

Fossils

Ashles,

Ta for that. Glad you like the posts.

Speaking off topic for a moment....I have seen a huge example of a mosquito in coal, which was found in Derbyshire in 1961. It's Carboniferous, but shows the size of these creatures even after millions of years of evolution. It measures about 1' - 1.5' long. It's kept in the drawer of my university where I studied earth sciences. (Kingston University, Surrey.)

Imagine that thing biting you? (Mind boggles.)

Coal is an excellent medium for finding fossils, but one has to wear gloves 'cos it gives people black hands!

Patsy.

 

[farmermike]

Interesting posts. Thanks songstress.

I strongly second that!!But how can I have confidence in what songstress states in her posts?Her mentioning that she is a trained geologist plus the fact that her posts would be accepted by other trained geologists is enough for me.This brings me back around to Nick(who may or may not show up again).I can see where you're coming from Dr.A with "I like Nick""he's been polite" and such.He was sincere and I can' recall him damning anyone to hell.But there was a hint of a swagger when he rode into Dodge City with refut'n on his mind.That AiG and other YEC's can enable your average Joe in thinking that he has one up on those smarty pants scientists.The world changes and gets more complex by the day so it's like being able to take refuge in an unchanging god and be empowered with this divine form of science.Is it hate the lie, love the liar or is it take a deep breath and be galled to the max

 

[Ossai]

About Nick being gone, he did post

Nick: I will be until next week sometime, I will look at that list of questions and answer as much as I can. After that I would like for you all to answer some of my questions. Talk to you all next week. Have a wonderful weekend.

I was expecting him back Monday but we should probably give him to at least the end of the week.

Ossai