ID/Creationism - How fast were extinctions?

LW
What precision of measurement would you accept as being acccurate enough for inerrant literal bible?
Personally the description is fine as is. It’s only when people start claiming an inerrant bible that I even bring it up. They can come up with some of the most awful apologetics ever imagined, and then they have to admit that the value of Pi in the bible is an approximation yet they continue to believe the bible is the primary source of truth. It’s like Nick wiggling around the flat earth presented in the bible, but claiming a young earth based on some of the same text.

Ossai
 
Just saw that Nick Harman posted.
stepping into prophet mode here. I predict that Darat’s answer will be…NO!

Especially since it doesn’t answer the question he has repeatedly ask.

Can I get a million now? :D

Ossai
 
Nick Harman said:
That is what I was looking for so I did not have to do it, thank you. Darat, will you accept that as not being man's oppinion and being from the bible (assuming for your sake it is from God). There is no interpretation here.

I take it Nick that you haven’t been able to find any passages in the Bible that state when creation happened and when the flood happened?
 
Nick Harman said:
That is what I was looking for so I did not have to do it, thank you. Darat, will you accept that as not being man's oppinion and being from the bible (assuming for your sake it is from God). There is no interpretation here.
Uh, Nick, did you read the rest of that page?

It shows that just by counting tree rings you can show the earth is older than that.

The whole page is anti-creationist, but you are using that one single table as evidence for your argument?

When you look at that page do you squint, or cover half the screen with your hands?

It may sound like I'm joking, but metaphorically that is exactly what you are doing with your entire argument.

There are so many good questions on this thread that you have just ignored, presumably as you have no response.
 
Ossai said:
LW
Personally the description is fine as is. It’s only when people start claiming an inerrant bible that I even bring it up. They can come up with some of the most awful apologetics ever imagined, and then they have to admit that the value of Pi in the bible is an approximation yet they continue to believe the bible is the primary source of truth.

Well, if that is your way, may I suggest a couple of more Bible passages where you can make the same argument:

1 Samuel 17:4
And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span

It is obvious that Goliath was not exactly six cubits and a span so there you have another error.

1 Samuel 17:7
And the staff of his spear was like a weaver's beam; and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron: and one bearing a shield went before him.

There you have again some measurement presented as exact, add it to your error list. (Though, to tell the truth, I find the idea that someone would use a spear with that heavy head quite ridiculous, but that is a different matter).

Gen 6:15
And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

It is impossible for any human to measure exact lenghts so obviously here we have yet another error.

Claiming that the passage implies that pi=3 is as ridiculous as claiming that all measurements in the text are in error. I don't think that it is a good idea to use ridiculous arguments when debating fundamentalists because then they have the opportunity of being the reasonable one in the debate.

[Edited to add: sure, most fundamentalists don't take the chance but it is counter productive to even offer it.]
 
I think H3LL was wondering why all of Nick's replies are written as quotes.

It is a bit strange - I tried to explain it to him a while back but, surprise surprise, it seems to have ignored what I wrote.
 
Ashles said:
I think H3LL was wondering why all of Nick's replies are written as quotes.

It is a bit strange - I tried to explain it to him a while back but, surprise surprise, it seems to have ignored what I wrote.

I tried, too, but he seems to ignore me even more than he ignores everyone else! He even gave someone else (Ashles?) credit for my idea! But intellectual dishonesty is a hallmark of creationism, so I'm not that suprised.

Maybe all geologists are invisible, I dunno.
 
Just to throw my two cents behind what LW has been saying about the pi thing.

I am in a (very surprisingly amicable and ongoing) debate with the chaplain in my Reserve unit. He claims biblical perfection.

I have consciously refrained from bringing up the pi thing for exactly the reasons LW has mentioned.
 
Nick Harman said:
Darat, will you accept that as not being man's oppinion and being from the bible (assuming for your sake it is from God). There is no interpretation here.
There is, in fact a little. Who are you relying on to give you the date of the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians?

However, I should say this interpretation is warranted --- at least, it can't be too far out.

So the Bible would allow us to deduce the age of the Earth if we made the entirely unwarranted assumption, contrary to the observed facts, that it is correct when interpreted in the way that you interpret it.

Unfortunately, as I've hinted, you are wrong in making that assumption. You're only human, after all.
 
I'm beginning to suspect we are all just talking to ourselves now (well even more so).

Nick's last 2 posts have solely been about this one chart that describes how adding ages in the Bible we reach an age for the earth.

It is a bit like quoting a description of Hogwart's from Harry Potter and The Philosopher's Stone in order to demonstrate that magic is real.

I remember long ago when we were actually discussing the scientific evidence...

Of all the questions Nick could have answered he chose to answer the only one that has nothing to do with scientific information.

Interesting.
 
LW and Garrette
Ok, I’ll drop the Pi argument.

That still leaves him with plenty of other inaccuracies in the bible.

Ossai
 
Ashles said:
I'm beginning to suspect we are all just talking to ourselves now (well even more so).

Nick's last 2 posts have solely been about this one chart that describes how adding ages in the Bible we reach an age for the earth.

It is a bit like quoting a description of Hogwart's from Harry Potter and The Philosopher's Stone in order to demonstrate that magic is real.

I remember long ago when we were actually discussing the scientific evidence...

Of all the questions Nick could have answered he chose to answer the only one that has nothing to do with scientific information.

Interesting.

And I now officially predict that Nick will come back with the same dodging and weaving to the effect that he's just too busy to actually read or understand a d*&#ed thing in this thread. Maybe he'll even insinuate that we're a load of losers who do nothing but attack creationists online every day.

*Goes to sit with Ossai to await their millions* :D
 
I've had a look, and here are some unanswered questions. If I could have Nick answer any one of these, it would be D4. F6 as my second pick. Does anyone else have any preferences?


A : THEOLOGY

(1) Can you point out where in the Qur'aan "it teaches that all non-believers should be killed"?

(2) "Scripture simply says that the moon, the sun, and the stars were placed in the firmament of the heaven, below and above which heaven are the waters." (Martin Luther). Do you agree?

(3) Do you acknowledge that the Bible was several times assembled --- and edited --- by fallible men?

(4) Why do you think that the people with knowledge of science and nature, of whatever religious faith, so overwhelmingly endorse evolution, and why are the YECs so pitifully ignorant of science and nature --- and so unconcerned with accuracy --- that their tracts are riddled with ridiculous falsehoods?


B : SCIENCE VERSUS PSEUDOSCIENCE

(1) Would you be so kind as to inform us of any practical use or any predictions that your so-called "science" can make?

(2) Can you point out any flaws in real science?


C : BETWEEN THE FALL AND THE FLOOD

(1) How did parasites, many of which cause life-threatening diseases exist while only Adam and Eve were on Earth [after the Fall]? Did they have all those parasites?

(2) Can you explain where Stone Age man fits into the Bible story? (NB: you may want to look at Genesis and see how many generations the Bible gives before the invention of bronze and ironworking.) Or is the Stone Age post-flood? Did descendants of Noah chose to turn their back on his knowledge and start from scratch? They discarded the tools and knowledge used to build the largest floating vssel in history and voluntarily went back to hunting with jaw bones and rocks?

(3) Do you know of any mechanism that would allow such a canopy [as described in Genesis] to exist? Do you have an idea of what records such a canopy would have left? Do you know if "life as we know, it Jim" would be possible under the conditions implied by such canopy? Do you know of any planetary model with such a feature? Do you know the qualifications of those who created such a model?


D : LIFE ON THE ARK AND THE SPECIES QUESTION

(1) Many fish species are quite delicate when it comes to water Ph, salinity, temperature and oxygen levels. How they survived the deluge? Did Noah have tanks in the Ark? (He would need tanks for fresh water and saltwater fish, since the deluge waters must have completely messed up the subaquatic environment.)

(2) How did Noah manage to maintain the environment on the arc for those creatures that live in low-pressure sub-zero environments and those that live in high-pressure high-temperature environments?

(3) Every modern disease of animals must have come on the Ark, including of course diseases that affect humans. The Ark must therefore have been loaded with bubonic plague, cholera, polio, typhus, typhoid, sleeping sickness, leprosy, syphillis, smallpox, measles, malaria... How did Noah and his family survive?

(4) How many different SPECIES did Noah take onto the Ark?

(5) You make a distinction between species and kind. Do you regard all ants as being of the same "kind"?

(6) Speciation has been observed in birds within a human generation, and ... mammals, insects, plants, and of course, bacteria. If you accept these facts, do you then also embrace the concept that all species were not created at once?


E : GEOLOGY AND THE FLOOD

(1) We have not recognized a worldwide flood deposit (in contrast to the recognized Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary). Where in the geologic column should we expect to find it (i.e., how old would it be)? If it would be 6,000 to 10,000 years old, there certainly should be evidence; heck, we have evidence of all sorts of regional depositional events that occurred during this time frame.

(2) How do YECs explain that layers supposedly deposited during the deluge can be tilted, faulted, folded, buried underneath kilometres of rock (including massive volcanics) or uplifited miles high?

(3) Since YECs claim that sedimentary rocks were formed by sediments deposited during the deluge, diagenesis and lithification must be quite fast, after a couple of thousand tears. Why don´t we see sediments say, deposited by the time of the pharaos, that became rock? Why does loose mud deposited at the bottom of a water body not become rock almost instantly?

(4) Are we to believe that there were igneous intrusions during the Deluge, forming nice tablular dikes in the sediment that was being swirled around, or that stratal deformations characteristic of consolidated rocks formed while the sediments were still being deposited?

(5) How do YECs explain metasedimentary rocks?

(6) Where are the all the tuff, ignimbrite, lava and lahar layers associated with the eruptions that caused or helped to cause the deluge [according to the hypothetical "steam from eruptions" mechanism for the Flood]? (Note that all of them must have the same age!)

(7) Why should "billions of dead things buried" be evidence of a global flood? Is this normally what we see after a flood? Why do you find it "unlikely" that we would have as many fossils as we do "if it wasn't for a ww flood"? Do you know how many fossils there are? If not, why do you find this number unlikely?

(8) (With regard to polystrate fossils) : Why should we take fossil evidence that there have been mudslides in the past for evidence that there has been a global flood?

(9) If fossilised creatures were all killed in a global flood, why are 90% of all fossils marine life? Wouldn't land animals be worse affected?

(10) Why are human remains never found in the same strata as dinosaur fossils?

(11) Can you explain the unique fossils of Antarctica in terms of YEC geology?

(12) Given that your claim that "the mountains raised up after the flood" is invalidated by Genesis 7, would you like another go at explaining where all the water went to?


F : AFTER THE FLOOD --- DISPERSION AND BIOGEOGRAPHY

(1) How did the plants survive the Flood / their seeds survive to germinate?

(2) After disembarking from the Ark how did the plant-eaters survive until the plants had grown out again, and how did the predators survive until the prey had multiplied?

(3) "Conservation biologists now calculate as a rough rule of thumb that unless a wild population contains around five hundred individuals, it is liable to go extinct, sooner or later. Yet even five hundred is only enough to allow the population to tick over... five hundred, then, is a very conservative figure." How does this square with the story of the Ark?

(4) If only two of each unclean land mammal was taken into the Ark, but there were eight humans, of which at least six formed breeding pairs, then we ought to find higher genetic diversity in humans than in unclean beasts, and we should also expect the most genetically diverse mammals to be whales, which would not have undergone the same (impossible) population bottleneck. But this is not what we find when we study genetics. Why do you think this is?

(5) The Great Pyramid shows no evidence at all of ever having been submerged. Therefore, it must be of post-Flood construction. But it is so old that it must have been constructed within a few hundred years, at most, of the Flood. How was that pyramid built by so few people?

(6) You explain the distribution of the world's fauna, and that of Australia in particular, by ascribing them to human pastoralists. Australia is home to dozens of unique species of venomous snake. Can you explain how and why anyone would herd these creatures to Australia from Turkey (without, you notice, losing any on the way --- Australian snakes are unique to Australia) and why they didn't, instead, take any domesticated meat animals such as sheep, goats, or cattle? Which humans would be dumb enough to carry polar bears to the Arctic? Tigers to Sumatra? Komodo dragons to Komodo? Crocodiles to Florida? Army ants to Brazil?
 
Ring species are, in effect, observed examples of new species arising, and "macroevolution" occuring.


Obviously macro-evolution. Yes, a rabbit giving birth to a rabbit. The proof I have been looking for.

Nick
 
Nick Harman said:
Ring species are, in effect, observed examples of new species arising, and "macroevolution" occuring.


Obviously macro-evolution. Yes, a rabbit giving birth to a rabbit. The proof I have been looking for.

Nick
What you described here:
Nick Harman said:
I have read that rabbits from different regions have become unable to breed. Take a 3rd region of rabbits and the other 2 can mate with them but the 1st 2 can not mate with each other.
is a number of groups of rabbits, all interrelated and able to interbreed (therefore all descended from the same species) but containing groups at extreme ends of their range that are unable to interbreed, and are therefore demonstrably of different species.

i.e. one species of rabbit giving rise to more than one species of rabbit.

The fact that you think they're of the same "kind" doesn't alter the fact that they have become different species.
 
Nick Harman said:
Ashles said:
Uh, Nick, did you read the rest of that page?

Yes, I know the rest of the page was anti-creationist, I was referring to the table only.

Nick Harman said:
Ring species are, in effect, observed examples of new species arising, and "macroevolution" occuring.


Obviously macro-evolution. Yes, a rabbit giving birth to a rabbit. The proof I have been looking for.

Nick

All those posts and all the links and information, questions and responses from everyone........

And this is the best you can come up with?

Well I'm convinced. Sign me up for YEC.


If it's all too much for you, just concentrate on Dr. A's last post.

He's taken the time to put most of the thread in one place for you. We know you are busy.

Go on...Have a go.

There's even numbers for you so we know which comment you are dealing with.

At the very least, it's common courtesy. Or is that not a christian "virtue"?
 

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