Ian McKellen's bible vandalism catches on

[Blue Mountain]

I have never personally seen a Bible in a hotel room, but I live in Canada, which is fairly agnostic when it comes to religion, compared to the US.

Either you don't travel very much or you're not very curious. In most of the hotels and motels I've been in here in Canada, there's a bible tucked away in a drawer on the bedside table.

 

[Ladewig]

So suppose you go into a hotel room and find a framed sign on the wall saying "AvalonXQ (or whatever your real name is) is an abomination and ought to be put to death", would you simply leave the sign where it was?

Of course, there are differences between your hypothetical and the case in evidence, one of which is that I, like many people, find it especially repugnant to harm books (there are other conceptual differences, like the fact that the Bible quote is about a BEHAVIOR, not a PERSON, being an abomination, but that's probably too content-rich to get into here).

Then let's change the hypothetical to a book donated to all hotels that includes a passage saying "Christianity is an abomination and all Christians should be put to death." After all, Christianity is just a BEHAVIOR and not a PERSON. You wouldn't be the least bit tempted to destroy the page that calls for the widespread slaughter of innocent people?

 

[StuBob]

I recently left a copy of Godless next to a Gideon bible in a hotel. It gives me some pleasure fantasizing about what might happen to it.

That's great!
A colleague of mind was wondering if he could buy a bunch of paperback versions of Dawkins' "God Delusion" to leave in hotel rooms next to the bibles. We mulled over the cost of the venture and then forgot about it. Maybe Prof. Dawkins can eventually make a cheap, Gideonesque copy of his book! Athiests could don their coat/tie/nametag and hand them out 20 yards away from the Gideon fellas. Ah, fun times.

 

[Ladewig]

I don't know enough about those Bible to argue with you. I am surprised that you can just take the Bible. I thought that you could read it in the room, but that is all.

The frontpiece of the book explains that guest may take the book without charge. Hotel maid carts include a stack of Bibles to replace any that are taken.

I have never personally seen a Bible in a hotel room, but I live in Canada, which is fairly agnostic when it comes to religion, compared to the US.

I've been in only four hotel rooms in Canada, but each one had a Bible. It is worthwhile to check for a Bible. Sometimes religious people hide their money there thinking that thieves would never think to look there. I've heard unconfirmed stories that occasionally they forget their money and a subsequent occupant finds it.

 

[cyborg]

Either you don't travel very much or you're not very curious. In most of the hotels and motels I've been in here in Canada, there's a bible tucked away in a drawer on the bedside table.

It can vary - I found one in a student dorm I was staying in during the summer holidays whilst working (this is in the UK). I was a bit surprised by that. Never found one in a hotel though - stayed in some pretty random ones though.

 

[Careyp74]

I admire McKellan as an actor, but this strikes me as free publicity for the other side. If there were some society of rationalists who went around putting free copies of "Free Thought" literature in hotel rooms, what would we make of people who bragged about systematically defacing or vandalising those books?

I agree. It isn't right that the bible is forced on anyone, however, just leave it in the drawer. You don't have to drink the horrible instant coffee either, but it is there if you want it.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Then let's change the hypothetical to a book donated to all hotels that includes a passage saying "Christianity is an abomination and all Christians should be put to death." After all, Christianity is just a BEHAVIOR and not a PERSON. You wouldn't be the least bit tempted to destroy the page that calls for the widespread slaughter of innocent people?

Not in the least.
I. Don't. Destroy. Books.
The solution to lies is not censorship, but the truth.

 

[Ladewig]

Not in the least.
I. Don't. Destroy. Books.
The solution to lies is not censorship, but the truth.

O.K. You don't believe in destroying books ever.

I am a bit confused about the last part of the post. Are you saying that calling for the execution of Christians is a lie? Is calling for the execution of homosexuals a lie, as well?

 

[AvalonXQ]

I am a bit confused about the last part of the post. Are you saying that calling for the execution of Christians is a lie? Is calling for the execution of homosexuals a lie, as well?

One would assume that, if I disagree with it, then there must be faulty reasoning or falsehood involved in it for me to do so. (ETA: Or it's just an unsupported "call to action", in which case, "NUH UH!")
The proper response is to spread the truth. Basically the idea that some people have had of putting some OTHER book next to the Bibles would be the carrying out of that idea.

 

[Ladewig]

One would assume that, if I disagree with it, then there must be faulty reasoning or falsehood involved in it for me to do so. (ETA: Or it's just an unsupported "call to action", in which case, "NUH UH!")
The proper response is to spread the truth. Basically the idea that some people have had of putting some OTHER book next to the Bibles would be the carrying out of that idea.

Now I understand what you were saying. The only question I have left is whether or not you consider a blanket condemnation of homosexuals to be an example of faulty reasoning that should be corrected by spreading the truth.

 

[Simon39759]

Yes, but even crap hotels have bibles. Would the local motel really end up in the papers for not putting bibles in the room?

Apart from that, I find it difficult to believe that even O'Reilly could spin not accepting a bible into an anti-Christian agenda.

The Religious right has called for the boycott of corporation for using 'Holiday' rather than 'Christmas'.
I seem to recall O'Reilly supporting that but y check at Faux News has him refuting that, so I might have been wrong on mentioning him personally.

But, no, it seems to me like a very, very likely outcome if any chain was to refuse to distribute Bible.

 

[AvalonXQ]

The Religious right has called for the boycott of corporation for using 'Holiday' rather than 'Christmas'.
I seem to recall O'Reilly supporting that but y check at Faux News has him refuting that, so I might have been wrong on mentioning him personally.

But, no, it seems to me like a very, very likely outcome if any chain was to refuse to distribute Bible.

I agree, and for the same reason. The "Merry Christmas" nonsense has shown that people will get up in arms over the silliest things.

 

[billw]

So when Ian McKellen stays at a Marriott, does he rip Alma Chapter 39 from The Book of Mormon?

 

[ZirconBlue]

But, no, it seems to me like a very, very likely outcome if any chain was to refuse to distribute Bible.

It seems that the hotel-room bible is slowly becoming less ubiquitous:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/69049

 

[slingblade]

So when Ian McKellen stays at a Marriott, does he rip Alma Chapter 39 from The Book of Mormon?

I'm sure he would if the circumstances were the same as with the Gideon bibles, and if he could make the same point he's trying to make with the Gideons.

Wouldn't you expect so, too, or do you see some difference you haven't mentioned, but which you are hoping we are clever enough to divine?

Why don't you assume we're not clever? Spell it out for us.

 

[six7s]

He may have evidence, but I doubt it.
<snip/>
We are on a skeptics board. We don't usually accept statments at face value.

Teh Irony... It BURNZ!

Do you have a point to make?

Yes. There is no evidence to suggest that Christians who are upset about someone tearing out pages from a bible would be 'lining up' to burn a pamphlett denouncing the bible's views on Homosexuality.

Huh? Your point is that you haven't found evidence for a possibility, therefore its impossible???

We are on a skeptics board. We don't usually dismiss a hypothesis just because it pushes us out of our comfort zone

A google search for 'christians hate homosexuality' is not particularly relevant.

Maybe not...

However, I linked to a search on christians+hate+homosexuals... if you think want to pretend that's irrelevant, then good luck

 

[Yoink]

The question of whether the Gideons encourage you to take the bible for your personal use seems to me to be utterly beside the point. The question, in my mind, is whether this is an act that is likely to further the cause that McKellan believes in or likely to hinder it. I can't see a single "anti gay rights" person being swayed to a "pro gay rights" position by this act. I can see some Christians who would otherwise take a "live and let live" approach becoming much more susceptible to the anti gay rights rhetoric that gay rights is part of a larger attack on 'religion' in general, however.

Imagine, for a second, that you were arguing over California's Prop 8 with someone who had been fed the (false) line about churches being forced to perform gay marriages against their will and children in schools being indoctrinated in gay marriage etc. Imagine that you're trying to persuade an undecided Christian voter in California to vote against Prop 8. Do you think the idea that "gay people rip up Bibles whenever they see them!" is going to help your case?

It would be far, far smarter for him to get a small pamphlet printed up that makes a solid and sensible case for gay rights in a pluralistic society (pointing out that the defense of gay rights is consistent with the defense of minority religious rights too, for example) and to slip that inside every Gideon's bible in the hotels he stays at. That might actually change someone's mind. This act of mindless vandalism certainly won't.

 

[AvalonXQ]

The question of whether the Gideons encourage you to take the bible for your personal use seems to me to be utterly beside the point. The question, in my mind, is whether this is an act that is likely to further the cause that McKellan believes in or likely to hinder it. I can't see a single "anti gay rights" person being swayed to a "pro gay rights" position by this act. I can see some Christians who would otherwise take a "live and let live" approach becoming much more susceptible to the anti gay rights rhetoric that gay rights is part of a larger attack on 'religion' in general, however.

This is exactly what happens.
Gay rights advocates have, through their actions, convinced a lot of people that their agenda is fundamentally anti-religion, and so must be opposed.

 

[Darat]

I do like "blame the victim" rationalizations....

 

[Marduk]

It would be far, far smarter for him to get a small pamphlet printed up that makes a solid and sensible case for gay rights in a pluralistic society .

so the fact that hes a founding member of Stonewall which has had huge success fighting for equal rights for LGBT and that he is a constant personal campaigner for same isn't relevant in this case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_McKellen#LGBT_rights_campaigning
tearing up bibles makes him happy as a form of expression
that he does it makes me happy that he can express himself that way
does he need any more motivation ?