I Wish I was Middle Income!

[Cain]

Don't stop there. Keep reading.

Shhhhhh, Zigg's just doing what people do when they can't argue the facts: argue semantics.

I look forward to Romney's clarification.

 

[deaman]

I look forward to Romney's clarification.

Comedy gold!

 

[Ziggurat]

Shhhhhh, Zigg's just doing what people do when they can't argue the facts: argue semantics.

I posted a direct quote from Obama where he specifically and explicitly defines what he considers middle class. And you call that semantics, and say that *I* am the one who won't discuss facts?

What part of "If you are making less than $250,000, then you are definitely somewhere in the middle class." do you not understand?

 

[Ziggurat]

Obviously not far enough. That's okay. Everyone else can read it for themselves, if they choose. You aren't actually fooling anyone.

And yet, I just explained what reading farther would produce.

What have you presented? Nothing. No argument, no evidence, no quotes, merely assertion. Granted, you have fooled at least one person. But he's not exactly the sharpest tool in the drawer, so I'm not sure how proud you should be.

 

[Upchurch]

What have you presented? Nothing. No argument, no evidence, no quotes, merely assertion.

Are you sure about that? Would you like to check again?

eta: meh. As I said, it doesn't really matter. It's there for people to read for themselves, if they choose. Your spin on things isn't really going to fool anyone who doesn't already want to be fooled.

 

[Cain]

I posted a direct quote from Obama where he specifically and explicitly defines what he considers middle class.

No, you didn't. You explicitly ignored what had been written earlier, and Upchurhc's warnings for reading on. Obama's view is that reasonable people agree under 150k is middle-class, while between 150 and 250 is a gray area, "somewhere" in the middle-class" -- like the upper-middle class. All of this is in the context of taxes, proposed increases and cuts. Obama went to paints to assure families in that lower six figure range that they will not face a tax increase. In other words, he's attempting to err on the side of safety, which is just good politics because Republicans will scour the nation for a family of ten, kids in college, two professional incomes, and declare the Kenyan-born terror baby hates real America.

And you call that semantics, and say that *I* am the one who won't discuss facts?
What part of "If you are making less than $250,000, then you are definitely somewhere in the middle class." do you not understand?

Ah, and if you're making $250,000.01 then you are definitely not somewhere in the middle-class. You're ignoring the meaning of the words. It's crap because explanations such as this take far more time and energy. Goes to the old saying in politics, "If you're explaining, then you're losing."

 

[Ziggurat]

No, you didn't.

Yes, I did. You have not challenged that quote, or its obvious meaning. Because you can't.

You explicitly ignored what had been written earlier, and Upchurhc's warnings for reading on.

First off, Upchurch's first post about the $150K level occurred while I was composing my post with the quote, so no ignoring was involved. And I already addressed his "warning" to read further, so I didn't ignore it after I posted the quote either. But evidently you ignored my follow-up post. Or you're just a liar.

Obama's view is that reasonable people agree under 150k is middle-class, while between 150 and 250 is a gray area, "somewhere" in the middle-class" -- like the upper-middle class.

And? That still makes it part of the middle class. And regardless of what anyone else calls it, he defines it as middle class. So my claim is completely correct, reading further doesn't

All of this is in the context of taxes, proposed increases and cuts.

Yes, it is. Both Obama and Romney are using that very same $250,000 threshold when talking about taxes on the middle class.

You're ignoring the meaning of the words.

That's rich. Obama explicitly says that up to $250,000 is middle class, and YOU want to pretend that the statement doesn't even exist.

 

[Upchurch]

More (warning: PDF)

FACT SHEET: SUPPORTING MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES

{snip}

• Help Families with Soaring Child Care Costs: The administration proposes to nearly double the Child Care Tax Credit for families making under $85,000 a year; with families earning up to $115,000 a year seeing at least some increase in their credit.

{snip}

The Obama-Biden Administration will nearly double the credit for middle-class families making under $85,000 a year by increasing their credit rate from 20 percent to 35 percent of child care expenses. Nearly all eligible families making under $115,000 a year would see a larger credit. Families could claim up to $3,000 in expenses for one child or $6,000 for two children. The maximum credit for a family with two children making $80,000 a year would increase by $900 from $1,200 to $2,100.

There are some more figures in there, but they all hover between the $120,000 - $60,000 range.

 

[Ziggurat]

Are you sure about that? Would you like to check again?

eta: meh. As I said, it doesn't really matter. It's there for people to read for themselves, if they choose. Your spin on things isn't really going to fool anyone who doesn't already want to be fooled.

"If you are making less than $250,000, then you are definitely somewhere in the middle class."

You're the one trying to spin that, not me.

 

[Upchurch]

First off, Upchurch's first post about the $150K level occurred while I was composing my post with the quote, so no ignoring was involved. And I already addressed his "warning" to read further, so I didn't ignore it after I posted the quote either. But evidently you ignored my follow-up post. Or you're just a liar.

But your post accusing me of having not provided an argument, evidence, or a quote came after I had posted an argument, evidence, and a quote from that report.

So... evidently, you ignored my post or...

 

[thaiboxerken]

To be fair, I think Romney is just trying to parrot Obama's tax-rate arguments about not raising taxes for people making less than $250K.

Taken alone, I don't think this is a big indicator that Mitt is out of touch. However, this another piece of evidence among a pile.

 

[Brown]

As I've said, before, Romney's just an ordinary guy.

Indeed. Now that Romney's neither wealthy nor priveleged, and is a man of the people, a common man like all the rest of us, he is more in tune with our cultural values re: not attacking people. A man we can trust. A man whose moral code is firmly graven upon an etch-a-sketch.

This is true. Everybody says so.

His gardener says so.
His butler says so.
His chauffeur says so.
The lifeguards at his pool say so.
His greenskeeper says so.
His shoeshine boy says so.
His bodyguards say so.
And his own wife (note the singular!) says so.

Yes sir, I bet old Mitt knows how much it costs to buy a loaf of bread or fill a car's tank with gas or send a kid to college. I'm sure he knows all about how much the typical voter spends on health care, consumer debt and insurance. He's running for public office, for cryin' out loud, and his actions and decisions might have major effects on such things. So OF COURSE he knows.

That said, the remarks in question are not those that would be made by an intelligent, informed man, which suggests that Romney either misspoke or that he is just plain stupid. People say he's smart, but smart people who know they're being watched don't say drop-dead-stupid things. Do they?

 

[Upchurch]

To be fair, I think Romney is just trying to parrot Obama's tax-rate arguments about not raising taxes for people making less than $250K.

Probably.

Taken alone, I don't think this is a big indicator that Mitt is out of touch. However, this another piece of evidence among a pile.

That's fair.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-09-14/romney-says-middle-income-250k-and-below



Man, this guy is living in a fantasy world. If you are over $150K a year, doesn't that even put you in the top 5-7%?

If you think that's bad, Obama thought there were 58 states!

 

[dudalb]

Another Day, Another Romney Screw Up.
For somebody who has basically spent the last 20 years prepearing for a Presendential run, he is really not very good at it......

 

[IXP]

To be fair, I think Romney is just trying to parrot Obama's tax-rate arguments about not raising taxes for people making less than $250K.

Except that he claims he not going to raise taxes for anyone, so why limit it to those making 200K to 250K?

The thing that makes me believe he really thinks this range is "middle income" is that fact that he said this in a response to the question "is 100K middle income?"

Also "middle class" and "middle income" are not the same thing. We have a very expansive idea of what it middle class in America because no one want to be labelled poor, or rich.

I actually am above 250K, and I am not rich. Rich is a lifestyle, not an income figure. I would not think of buying a $1M home or a $100K car, though I could afford it.

IXP

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Shhhhhh, Zigg's just doing what people do when they can't argue the facts: argue semantics.

Well, he's wrong semantically. There is no conventional way that a range that includes 98.5% of all households can be called "middle income" households.

He is correct in his tu quoque argument (aside from the fact that tu quoque is no defense of Romney) in that Obama has referred to the same category as "middle class".

At least the term "middle class" is defensible as a matter of opinion --one I would disagree with--since "class" is a more vaguely defined concept than "income", but calling this range "middle income" is false as a matter of fact.

Also, Obama was trying to push through what the left would call a very conservative tax proposal (let the Bush tax cuts expire for households with incomes above $250K). If your argument, Zig, is that Obama is speaking the very same conservative language as Romney, I would agree. This is what he offered in the spirit of bipartisan compromise. It's a modest change compared to the Bush tax cuts themselves. In fact, it's very nearly the status quo wrt taxes.

Romney, on the other hand, is proposing a fairly radical change in the tax code while offering very little by way of specifics.

 

[Unabogie]

Another Day, Another Romney Screw Up.
For somebody who has basically spent the last 20 years prepearing for a Presendential run, he is really not very good at it......

Exactly so. Both Bush and Obama were wealthy when they ran for office, but each of them knew enough about the non-wealthy that they could communicate a basic understanding of life for the vast majority of Americans. Of course, Obama actually walked the talk and spent time in Chicago working with the truly poor, so that's a well of experience he can draw on, even as his life is cut off from those people.

But Romney just seems to be incapable of understanding why saying $374,000 isn't much money, or how his wife has a couple of Cadillacs, or how betting $10,000 during a debate can make you look.

And christ on a stick, he's been running for office non stop, for Pete's sake. Is it that hard for him to get some advice on what not to say?

 

[Cain]

Yes, I did. You have not challenged that quote, or its obvious meaning. Because you can't.

First off, Upchurch's first post about the $150K level occurred while I was composing my post with the quote, so no ignoring was involved. And I already addressed his "warning" to read further, so I didn't ignore it after I posted the quote either. But evidently you ignored my follow-up post. Or you're just a liar.

[Cain: I was aware of your subsequent post, and the dissembling that went into it]

And? That still makes it part of the middle class. And regardless of what anyone else calls it, he defines it as middle class. So my claim is completely correct, reading further doesn't

[Cain: No, it's not "completely" correct for reasons enunciated earlier]

Yes, it is. Both Obama and Romney are using that very same $250,000 threshold when talking about taxes on the middle class.

That's rich. Obama explicitly says that up to $250,000 is middle class, and YOU want to pretend that the statement doesn't even exist.

[Cain: No, you'd like to pretend it's the only statement that exists]

Executive Summary: You're boring. And wrong. This is "You didn't build that" all over again. Consider changing your handle to "Black-Hole of Charisma"

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Obama's view is that reasonable people agree under 150k is middle-class,

And I think that's pretty unreasonable too. If so it puts over 90% of Americans in the "middle class".

But again, the term "middle class" may be considered to have its own meaning (something that doesn't really refer to the "middle" of anything). Using the term this way, there was a long time in history when there was no such a thing as a "middle class" (even though there was always some segment of the population that could be said to be in the middle of the distribution of income, wealth, economic opportunity or whatever measure you're talking about).

The term "middle income" doesn't have any such specialized meaning. It really only means the middle of the distribution of incomes. Referring to 98% of the entire distribution as "the middle" is not a conventional use of language.

It would be like referring to the period from January through November as the "middle" of the year.