I challenge you: your best alternate to materialism

[Belz...]

i know that I was produced by my mother and that you were produced by a mother related to my mother. As such we are essentially clones. This being the case, you will have similar levels of consciousness to myself.

First of all, no, that is not cloning.

Second, no, it does not follow.

 

[punshhh]

That is funny... when I lived and worked in India (Kolkata) my good friend and colleague always told me he was Brahman, the highest caste... nothing western about him.

That's Brahmin, not Brahman. I was pointing out that TM is a western version of hunduism.

 

[doronshadmi]

So where does consciousness fit in? What/where is subjective and objective?

Subjective and objective are some particular aspects about consciousness in itself (known also as direct awareness of the simplest state of existence).

Please look at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10437382&postcount=1405.

 

[punshhh]

First of all, no, that is not cloning.

It is a variation on cloning.

Second, no, it does not follow.

Yes, if one adopts solipsism, it doesn't follow. However as I pointed out near the beginning of the thread, if one regards all of humanity(or life in general) as one organism it does follow.

there are other 'isms for which it does follow.

 

[doronshadmi]

neutral monism is the position that both mind and matter are the same thing, merely looked at in different ways, one from the point of view of causal analysis, the other from the point of view of being sheer, singular presentation.

This is the multiplicity view of existence that can't be used in order to directly know the simplest state of existence, which is the substance of all possible points of view that is not bounded by any one of them or all of the together.

This is exactly the reason of why one can be developed into 100% harmoniums factor among multiplicity by directly be aware of the simplest state of existence, where one of the results is no need of violence in order to efficiently communicate among multiple things.

Please look at the following diagram:

By this diagram (which uses a cross section through the poles of Riemann sphere) the neutral is thing (which is not one_of_many thing), where multiplicity is:

NOthing is contradiction.

YESthing is tautology.

SOMEthing is one_of_many thing.

EVERYthing is all_of_many thing.

The simplest state of existence is neutral among its NO\YES\SOME\EVERY multiple expressions.

If one directly aware of thing, one can be developed into 100% harmoniums factor among its multiple expressions, and this is exactly Neutral monism's practical fulfillment.

Techniques like TM enable direct awareness of thing.

Also please look at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10437465&postcount=1409.

 

[ehcks]

It is a variation on cloning.

No. That's simply you're both creatures in species with two-gender mating.

if one adopts solipsism

Solipsism is the ultimate form of philosophical garbage. It leads nowhere. It allows no questions. It is absolutely useless.

 

[Belz...]

My proof is the same as how I know I am conscious, along with the realisation that I am a clone* of my mother.

Stop that. That is NOT cloning.

 

[Belz...]

It is a variation on cloning.

It really isn't. Taking two half-sets of DNA and mashing them together is NOT what cloning is. In cloning the DNA must be identical to one parent's.

 

[doronshadmi]

Solipsism is the ultimate form of philosophical garbage.

I agree, because Solipsism tries to be aware of the simplest state of existence in terms of one_of_many thing, which is bounded at the level of thoughts.

"Cogito ergo sum" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum) is a concrete example of Solipsism's failure.

 

[realpaladin]

That's Brahmin, not Brahman. I was pointing out that TM is a western version of hunduism.

Eh... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

 

[punshhh]

Stop that. That is NOT cloning.

Ok ok. It's not cloning in the scientific sense. However the body produced by my mother is virtually identical, albeit with a mechanism for allowing genetic variation between generations. The same with your mother and their common ancestor. Certainly in terms of what in the human body generates consciousness, we are essentially identical.

How do I know that any other so called self-conscious object is self-conscious and not a mimic, or automaton?

 

[Belz...]

Ok ok. It's not cloning in the scientific sense. However the body produced by my mother is virtually identical, albeit with a mechanism for allowing genetic variation between generations.

No, It's NOT virtually identical. It's less than 50% identical. You know, Punshhh it would really be nice if you made an effort to learn stuff, here.

How do I know that any other so called self-conscious object is self-conscious and not a mimic, or automaton?

Yes, that's my question.

 

[Belz...]

I agree, because Solipsism tries to be aware of the simplest state of existence in terms of one_of_many thing, which is bounded at the level of thoughts.

Doron, please stop making efforts to show your ignorance. It's embarassing.

 

[LarryS]

That's Brahmin, not Brahman. I was pointing out that TM is a western version of hunduism.

I figured that Doron was recycling Brahman or Tao and have suggested that in a prior post . . . I was hoping he would just fess up.

 

[LarryS]

Ok ok. It's not cloning in the scientific sense. However the body produced by my mother is virtually identical, albeit with a mechanism for allowing genetic variation between generations. The same with your mother and their common ancestor. Certainly in terms of what in the human body generates consciousness, we are essentially identical.

How do I know that any other so called self-conscious object is self-conscious and not a mimic, or automaton?

I know what you are getting at, we are clones in a poetic sense . . . we are stamped out with varying capacity and interest in the use of logic, different likes and dislikes, and etc., but we with human form can be described as having the same class of human consciousness.

 

[Belz...]

we are clones in a poetic sense

 

[turingtest]

Ok ok. It's not cloning in the scientific sense. However the body produced by my mother is virtually identical, albeit with a mechanism for allowing genetic variation between generations. The same with your mother and their common ancestor. Certainly in terms of what in the human body generates consciousness, we are essentially identical.

How do I know that any other so called self-conscious object is self-conscious and not a mimic, or automaton?

How to do woo- take a word that has a specified, contextual definition out of its proper context (science), force it into another ("poetic"?) context while pretending it's the same definition, then, when you're called on it, insist the context doesn't matter- end result, you get to define complete opposites as the same thing.

 

[Nonpareil]

How do I know that any other so called self-conscious object is self-conscious and not a mimic, or automaton?

That is exactly the point. You can't. There is no difference.

Because, if something acts exactly in all situations as if it is self-conscious, it is self-conscious. Being "clones" or copies or whatever term you want to use has nothing to do with it. Being made of meat as opposed to metal has nothing to do with it. Having the same sensory apparatuses or not has nothing to do with it.

It really is that simple.

 

[Nonpareil]

Yes I am aware of this requirement. Unfortunately this is a non sequitur if it is possible for a mimic to replicate all the behaviour.

In which case it would not be a mimic any more.

This is not complicated.

Why would it not be possible to fashion an AI device which can replicate all the computation involved in a person?

It would be possible. Brains are computers.

And the result would be self-conscious.

Also if this device were made why would it be necessary for it to be conscious in any way?

Because it behaves in every way exactly as though it were conscious.

That is what "is" means.

 

[doronshadmi]

Doron, please stop making efforts to show your ignorance. It's embarassing.

You embarrassing yourself without any efforts by your Matter's behavior paradigm of ignorance.