I challenge you: your best alternate to materialism

For example, the objects while dreaming, they are measurable and comparable. The objects of dreaming also appear to be independent of consciousness and behave as if they are material.

It is a very rare dream where the object of dreaming behave as if they are material (e.g. behave like we have in wake life).

As of them being independent of consciousness, only if you limit conciousness to be our brain function when we are awake. But even if you do, dreaming is just another process in the brain. Material process.

But of course the contents of dreaming are not physical.

Irrelevant. I can consciously construct an object which does not exists in real life, but still it does not mean anything about materialism. That object will still be the result of SOLELY brain physical process.

If I dream of a car crash, the contents of the dream are real events in the brain, but the car crash itself is not physical.

While dreaming we 'behave' as if the objects of dreaming are physical, and likewise while awake we 'behave' as though the objects of waking are physical. But that does not make them physical. The easiest person to fool is our self.

So the principle evidence for Materialism; that objects behave in every way as if they were physical, so they are physical; is lacking.

We evaluate the objects of dreaming to be non-physical from the 'superior' state of waking. How are we to properly evaluate the objects of waking from the waking state - we would need a state 'superior' to waking to properly evaluate the objects of waking state.

You cannot say that dream object behave as if they were physical because you cannot do experiment on them.
 
For example, the objects while dreaming, they are measurable and comparable. The objects of dreaming also appear to be independent of consciousness and behave as if they are material.

No they don't. They behave as you think they will behave in the dream, going so far as dissapearing or changing shape right in front of your "eyes". They behave nothing like real ones. I've said many times in the past: objective reality is the only consistent one.
 
Whatever one thinks they see during TM is entirely their own doing. It's not the evidence I asked Doron because even if my experience confirms his, I can't know if it's objective.
Dear Belz...

This time you ignored

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGijME2caEM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtd2zqDXZkA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO3AnD2QbIg

And as for your diagram, probably it reflects your own brain.

After all, what one can ask from a person that its own reasoning is based on (reality is 100% material) AND (we can't be 100% sure of anything) paradigm?
 
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Just drawing pretty diagrams to illustrate your assertions doesn't make them fact, Doron.
In that case, why you don't reply also about Belz's diagram, you know, just for the sake of consistency about your approach to diagrams?

I tried some TM once,
By "some TM" do you mean an effortless technique as very clearly introduced in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO3AnD2QbIg ?

And what exactly is the meaning of "once" in your reply?

Infinity involves the resolution of absolute contradictions; if a circle was infinitely large, any given segment of its circumference would be a straight line. Geddit?
Where exactly in my diagram I define the 1-dimesional element (whether it is straight or not) as a composition of segments (in other words, you totally have missed it and also its "without loss of generality" meaning)?
 
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No they don't. They behave as you think they will behave in the dream, going so far as dissapearing or changing shape right in front of your "eyes". They behave nothing like real ones. I've said many times in the past: objective reality is the only consistent one.

I never said objects in dreams behave like objects in waking, only that while dreaming, the objects of dreams behave as if they were physical (ie we respond to objects in dreams as if they were material).

It's only from waking state that we realize the objects of dreaming are not physical.

Therefore, how can we properly evaluate the objects of waking as being physical except from yet another 'superior' state to waking, (as waking is superior to dreaming which allows us to evaluate dreaming). The fact remains our knowledge of the world is modulated by our current state of consciousness.
 
I never said objects in dreams behave like objects in waking, only that while dreaming, the objects of dreams behave as if they were physical (ie we respond to objects in dreams as if they were material).

It's only from waking state that we realize the objects of dreaming are not physical.

....snip...,

Not in my dreams we don't - how things act and how I seem to perceive them change constantly - there is no internal consistency or coherent world.
 
I don't do arguments from Youtube.
Youtube is a tool for knowledge over the internet, which can be reliable or not, exactly like Wikipedia.

The one that airs its view about its content is you.

By totally rejecting a given content just because it is given by some tool, you clearly demonstrate your narrow attitude about learning.

Actually, why do you think that this forum and your posts in this forum are always better than what can be found in the Youtube?
 
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Not in my dreams we don't - how things act and how I seem to perceive them change constantly - there is no internal consistency or coherent world.
How do you define the linkage among "internal consistency" and "coherent world"?
 
Not in my dreams we don't - how things act and how I seem to perceive them change constantly - there is no internal consistency or coherent world.


You're not paying attention - I am not saying dreams are as coherent or as consistent as waking - only that dreams seem physical . . . that is, we duck, we wince we avoid and etc. in our dreams as we do while awake.
 
By "some TM" do you mean an effortless technique as very clearly introduced in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO3AnD2QbIg ?

Nothing is effortless except death.

Youtube is a tool for knowledge over the internet

But it is not sourced, which makes it difficult to verify. Anyone can claim anything. I am asking for evidence. You have failed.

The one that airs its view about its content is you.

I have done no such thing. I am telling you that I will not skim through videos in the faint hope that it will meet my request. I didn't say there was nothing in the videos. I can't, since I refuse to watch them.

I never said objects in dreams behave like objects in waking, only that while dreaming, the objects of dreams behave as if they were physical (ie we respond to objects in dreams as if they were material).

How is that different ? Dream do not appear physical.

It's only from waking state that we realize the objects of dreaming are not physical.

That is not true. Often you realise you are in a dream specifically because it's not consistent.
 
I get what you are saying, I don't deny there's a practicality to Materialism useful when negotiating on our nation's highways or looking for a cure for cancer. But it has little explanatory power.

No. Just no.

Materialism is literally the only ontology with any explanatory power at all.

For example, the objects while dreaming, they are measurable and comparable. The objects of dreaming also appear to be independent of consciousness and behave as if they are material.

But of course the contents of dreaming are not physical. If I dream of a car crash, the contents of the dream are real events in the brain, but the car crash itself is not physical.

While dreaming we 'behave' as if the objects of dreaming are physical, and likewise while awake we 'behave' as though the objects of waking are physical. But that does not make them physical. The easiest person to fool is our self.

So the principle evidence for Materialism; that objects behave in every way as if they were physical, so they are physical; is lacking.

Does not follow.

A materialistic universe can account for dreams, as they are physical processes within the brain. The fact that we are stupid in dreams is also accounted for by a materialistic universe, since when you sleep many of your higher brain functions are simply not active. Being unable to spot inconsistencies does not mean they are not there. This is, in fact, exactly what we would expect.

And all this is ignoring the fact that lucid dreaming exists, and even when not lucid dreaming, many people - or, at least, myself and a handful of others that I know - are cognizant of the inconsistencies in dreams, but too passive to actually care or think about it much due to being, y'know, asleep.

The fact remains that the universe behaves, in every way, exactly as it would if it were materialistic in nature.

This leaves the dream argument with only one recourse: claiming that all of reality might be a dream and we just can't see it, which, again, sticks you with the problem that, while technically coherent in the absolute loosest sense of the term, it is in no way rational. In fact, it is the exact opposite of rational, because its foundation rests on claiming that nothing can ever be evidence of anything, ever.

And, again, that entire nonsensical position disintegrates as soon as you have any functional definition of the word "exists".
 
Please look at this diagram:

That's still not actually a diagram, doronshadmi. It's just a rather trippy-looking picture drawn by applying the mathematical principle of "cut the line in half and then draw some semicircles".

The absolute symmetry in that diagram is defined (without loss of generality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Without_loss_of_generality)) by the endless non-composed 1-dimesional element, whether it is straight or not, and it remains invariant among all of its possible vibrations and their combinations with each other, defined as the expressed level of the endless non-composed 1-dimesional element.

So actually there is only absolute symmetry (only one endless non-composed 1-dimesional element, which is not one_of many thing) that is expressed as multiple phenomena that do not break its absolute symmetry.

Techniques like TM simply unfold the absolute symmetry to the human brain, first only by its straight state during TM practice, and then also by its non-straight states and their combinations, during daily life.

The benefit of naturally being aware of absolute symmetry during daily life is fulfilled by actually becoming a factor of harmony among all possible expressed phenomena, which are naturally tuned by absolute symmetry, which remains unbroken and invariant among all of its possible broken and variant expressions.

The outer "{" and "}" in set theory is exactly the absolute symmetry among all of its possible broken and variant expressions (transformations) defined as its members.

For those curious, yes, this is more word salad.

Oh, there's some stuff in there that borders on coherent, mostly when he's just saying "it's a symmetrical picture of a line with semicircular curves coming off of it", but he even manages to muck all that up and turn the actual definitions into incoherent messes. The rest is incoherent, meaningless gibberish.

Personally you are (yet) misunderstanding binary trees, as clearly seen in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10381545&postcount=645.

You are still repeating the same mistakes that I have already gone over a dozen times.

Putting the words "Unity", "materialism" and "idealism" on a binary tree does not make your word salad any more coherent.
 
Apologies for multiple posts. I usually try to avoid even double-posting, but I missed this one earlier and don't want to leave it hanging.

There is no independently tested hypothesis, or any sophisticated understanding of the subjective level of existence emergent in mind as manifest in humanity(other than anthropological studies, which again are observations of people).

By this I assume you mean that there is as of yet no concrete understanding of the mechanism that produces a "me".

This is true. However, we do know that this mechanism is material in nature. Earlier in this thread, PixyMisa posted links to studies which have shown that certain chemical alterations to the brain can result in the eradication of that "me". We know that the process is material in nature. We just don't yet know exactly what it is or which part of the brain does it.

Assumption based on observation and a reduction of subjective experience to convulsions of the physical brain.

No. Conclusion, based on the fact that, aside from the great strides we've been making in neuroscience and the lack of any sort of evidence for qualia turning up, there isn't even anything approaching a coherent definition for them.

Reference to magic is straw, you'll have to better than that.

It's a figure of speech, albeit an appropriate one.

In my opinion, idealism and other alternatives are functionally equivalent to magic - but that's a discussion for another time.

An argument is not required as all known instances of consciousness are emergent results of metabolic evolution.

Slight quibble: all known instances of brains sophisticated enough to produce something that most people would acknowledge as a mind are the result of metabolic evolution.

Again, minds come from brains. There is nothing in the definition of "brain" that means it has to be made of squishy meat bits.

Note, I have repeatedly pointed out that I make a distinction between consciousness and mind, consciousness is metabolic, mind is self conscious processing of subjective abstractions.

My mistake. Can you repost your definition of "consciousness" so that I better understand you in future?

Nonsense, until materialism provides a thorough description and explanation of a genuine ontology, a rational person may freely consider alternative ontologies.

Ignoring for the moment the fact that materialism can and does provide a - in fact, the only - functional description of anything, geocentrism was never a rational choice, even before heliocentrism was put forth.

No, the proof we use between other human beings is a realisation that they are essentially clones of one life form, hence virtually identical.

Perhaps that is the proof you use. It does not change the fact that the one I gave is the only one that functions in all situations.

Because that's what "is" means.

Straw, I presume you are referring to the ingredient in the mix specifically requiring an idealist ontology. There is none, as ontologies which ever is the genuine one, results in exactly the same phenomena in the world.

The difference is that, in an idealistic universe, there is no reason for anything to behave in any given way, let alone one that matches so perfectly to a materialistic universe.

To argue for idealism in this circumstance is special pleading.

Yes, just like philosophical zombies. How will we know that said AI are zombies or sentient?

P-zombies are an incoherent concept. An entity which behaves in all situations exactly as though it is conscious is conscious. Again, that is the definition of "is". To say "a p-zombie behaves in all situations indistinguishably from a conscious entity, but is not a conscious entity" is gibberish. You might as well say "it's blue, but it's not blue".

These are little more than caricatures of the issue.

They're really not. See my responses to LarryS.
 
Youtube is a tool for knowledge over the internet, which can be reliable or not, exactly like Wikipedia.

The one that airs its view about its content is you.

By totally rejecting a given content just because it is given by some tool, you clearly demonstrate your narrow attitude about learning.

Actually, why do you think that this forum and your posts in this forum are always better than what can be found in the Youtube?

Experience.
 
No. Just no.

Materialism is literally the only ontology with any explanatory power at all.



Does not follow.

A materialistic universe can account for dreams, as they are physical processes within the brain. The fact that we are stupid in dreams is also accounted for by a materialistic universe, since when you sleep many of your higher brain functions are simply not active. Being unable to spot inconsistencies does not mean they are not there. This is, in fact, exactly what we would expect.

And all this is ignoring the fact that lucid dreaming exists, and even when not lucid dreaming, many people - or, at least, myself and a handful of others that I know - are cognizant of the inconsistencies in dreams, but too passive to actually care or think about it much due to being, y'know, asleep.

The fact remains that the universe behaves, in every way, exactly as it would if it were materialistic in nature.

This leaves the dream argument with only one recourse: claiming that all of reality might be a dream and we just can't see it, which, again, sticks you with the problem that, while technically coherent in the absolute loosest sense of the term, it is in no way rational. In fact, it is the exact opposite of rational, because its foundation rests on claiming that nothing can ever be evidence of anything, ever.

And, again, that entire nonsensical position disintegrates as soon as you have any functional definition of the word "exists".

We know we (can be) stupid in dream state because we can evaluate dream state from the deemed superior waking state. How do we know we aren't also stupid in waking state unless we evaluate waking state from yet a more superior state . . . unless we decree human waking state as special and beyond reproach regarding the determining of what is physical.
 
Dear Belz...

This time you ignored

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGijME2caEM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtd2zqDXZkA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO3AnD2QbIg

And as for your diagram, probably it reflects your own brain.

After all, what one can ask from a person that its own reasoning is based on (reality is 100% material) AND (we can't be 100% sure of anything) paradigm?

OK, taking one for the team, the first two are from a series (part 2 and 3) from the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Open University and the third is an instructional about how TM is a simple technique yet you must pay us money to learn it.

Unless you are into self abuse, it is pointless to watch them and I recommend nobody watch this unsupported drek.
 
We know we (can be) stupid in dream state because we can evaluate dream state from the deemed superior waking state. How do we know we aren't also stupid in waking state unless we evaluate waking state from yet a more superior state . . .

As Nonpareil pointed out, this line of questioning leads to a total denial of the possibility of knowledge. That's why materialism is the superior ontology.
 

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