I challenge you: your best alternate to materialism

Non-materialism would have to be magical or supernatural. By definition, the material and immaterial are different realms. Interaction between the two would seem to be prima facia impossible.

Why? Matter and energy interact, time and space interact, logic and behavior interact.

Maybe the problem is we can't get a good definition of what material and immaterial might mean - other than the ever popular definition for immaterial: "things that do not exist."

I'll take another stab at it, just for fun. The order of notes in a song is not a material thing. And yet, one order I think is pleasing and another not too good. Replace a note or two and the song fails to move me. In other words, the order of the notes has an impact on my current emotional state. That, in turn, has an impact on whether I will smile or cry.

Somewhere in that chain of events we have moved from the logic of music to a visible response - something quite observable.
 
No, it is some reasoning that is limited only to multiplicity, and by using this limitation as your comprehensive view, you simply can't conclude anything about http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27823.

I'm sorry but you simply don't understand the foundation of logic.

Think of it as billiard balls. You can't interact with the balls without touching them directly or indirectly. You can't claim that something interacts with them but doesn't touch them. It doesn't make sense.
 
I don't follow. Gods and magic don't exist.

They exist as ideas/concepts. If I contribute 10% of my income to a church because I think that's what God wants me to do, certainly the concept has had a real-world effect, regardless of whether there's a God or not to approve my donation.

If I wish to convince a Christian that some action is moral, I might very well quote God or Jesus to influence them. So at least some of us act as if those things exist.
 
I'm sorry but you simply don't understand the foundation of logic.

Think of it as billiard balls. You can't interact with the balls without touching them directly or indirectly. You can't claim that something interacts with them but doesn't touch them. It doesn't make sense.
The ability of billiard balls to interact with each other is derived from the common Unity among them.

Otherwise they are totally disjoint of each other.

In other words, your billiard balls+interaction example is logicality Unity among multiplicity.
 
Last edited:
You can't claim that something interacts with them but doesn't touch them.
I do not claim such nonsense.

I do claim that multiplicity is an expression of Unity, where Unity enables the interaction among multiple things, in the first place.
 
If something interacts with the material, it IS material. If something is not material, it CANNOT interact with the material.
If multiple material things do not have anything in common, they can't interact with each other, in the first place.

So, logicality only Unity AND multiplicity provide material things AND interactions among them.

This is exactly Neutral monism as logically explained in http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27823.
 
Last edited:
Exactly. That's the point. Duality is inconsistent with logic.
Right. Dualism is either a logically inconsistent proposition, or a logically consistent proposition of a logically inconsistent universe. Either way, as soon as anyone proposes it, they automatically lose the argument.
 
They exist as ideas/concepts. If I contribute 10% of my income to a church because I think that's what God wants me to do, certainly the concept has had a real-world effect, regardless of whether there's a God or not to approve my donation.

If I wish to convince a Christian that some action is moral, I might very well quote God or Jesus to influence them. So at least some of us act as if those things exist.
Instantiations of concepts are material things - brain processes (or more generally, computational processes). That these instantiations are real does not in any way suggest that the concepts themselves are true.
 
They exist as ideas/concepts. If I contribute 10% of my income to a church because I think that's what God wants me to do, certainly the concept has had a real-world effect, regardless of whether there's a God or not to approve my donation.

If I wish to convince a Christian that some action is moral, I might very well quote God or Jesus to influence them. So at least some of us act as if those things exist.

Which is irrelevant to what I said. The effect you are talking about does not come from gods or magic but from belief in them. Did you think I would not notice ?
 
The ability of billiard balls to interact with each other is derived from the common Unity among them.

The what ?

No, their ability to interact is derived from the fact that they exist.

In other words, your billiard balls+interaction example is logicality Unity among multiplicity.

And you fall back to word salad. Define "unity" and "multiplicity".

I do not claim such nonsense.

If you don't, then why are you distinguishing "material" and "consciousness". If they interact and coexist, then are they not both the same thing ?

If multiple material things do not have anything in common, they can't interact with each other, in the first place.

Your sentence there is illogical: they DO have something in common, since you said yourself that they are all material.
 
Instantiations of concepts are material things - brain processes (or more generally, computational processes). That these instantiations are real does not in any way suggest that the concepts themselves are true.

No, but the point was to show that immaterial things (concepts) have material consequences, not that there was any "truth" in the mix.
 
Which is irrelevant to what I said. The effect you are talking about does not come from gods or magic but from belief in them. Did you think I would not notice ?

I hoped you would. Are beliefs material things? Because I have a lot of justified beliefs about things that do not exist. Perhaps that is the transitional step between the material and the immaterial?
 
I hoped you would. Are beliefs material things? Because I have a lot of justified beliefs about things that do not exist. Perhaps that is the transitional step between the material and the immaterial?

The brain processes that allow you to have beliefs are material. They derive from brain states.

Could you give an example of a justified belief about something that does not exist?

Hans
 
The brain processes that allow you to have beliefs are material. They derive from brain states.

Could you give an example of a justified belief about something that does not exist?

Hans

Certainly.
The desk I am using holds my computer, a keyboard and monitor, and various ephemera on it. There is no hippo on my desk. If there were a hippo on my desk, there would be no room for any of that other stuff.

I claim that I am justified in believing there is no hippo on my desk and that, in fact, the lack of a hippo is a necessary condition for me to be typing this.

The very non-existence of that hippo is not only justified, but critical - my desk could not function with a hippo on it, I am depending on there not being a hippo, and the non-existence of the hippo is required for me to use the desk.
 
Last edited:
which is simply an aggregation of words that have no meaning what so ever, and therefore one can't conclude anything about them.

On the contrary, if a given information can be accepted, rejected or partially accepted or rejected, it is definitely not in the category of word salad, that by definition has no meaning what so ever.

This is wrong.

Saying that a pile of nonsense words can't result in any conclusions being drawn is self-evident nonsense. The lack of a coherent radio signal means that you can conclude that no meaning is being conveyed.

by your own evidence

you have no clue what are you talking about

This is wrong.

For those who are curious, I have actually taken many higher-level maths courses; while my final major ended up being Literature rather than Computer Engineering with a minor in Physics as originally planned, I do have the background to be able to understand this sort of thing.

I just don't care, because it's all irrelevant anyway; it does not support the "theorem" in any form, and is simply there to give doronshadmi a wall to hide behind. I especially don't care because, as has been demonstrated elsewhere, for all his claims of superior mathematical knowledge, doronshadmi does not understand math.

I have no interest in wasting my time trying to decipher a poorly-worded "proof" from someone who repeatedly and demonstrably fails to grasp the concepts they attempt to use, and which is not actually relevant to the claims made in any case.

you have no clue what my theorem is, generally or particularly.

This is wrong.

I fully understand your "theorem" - in fact, I have given multiple summaries of it in previous posts. What I don't bother to deal with is the wall of nonsense that follows.

Which is irrelevant.

You actually did not say anything about my theorem

This is wrong.

Simply reading my previous posts is enough to see that this is complete and utter tripe.

Using other persons to support something that you don't understand in the first place, by your own evidence, is no more than a concrete example of how the ignorance of the mob is flourishing.

This is wrong.

Firstly, the only opinion I have offered regarding this "theorem" is my own. Your "math" is not part of the theorem; it is an attempt to show how a system implied by the theorem operates.

As the system is not properly defined, the theorem which suggests its existence is not properly defined and is self-contradictory, and the premises which supposedly result in the theorem's adoption are completely lacking in basic supporting evidence, there is no need to address it. It is irrelevant.

What I have used other people's posts to point out - or would have, if I wasn't posting from phone and incapable of fetching links - is that, even if we care at all about your irrelevant pseudomath, it is very likely wrong.

Because you don't understand math.

And you are very, very fond of making up nonsense phrases to try and hide that.

Yes, I know, anything that does not fit to your material-only theorm, is unconditionally excluded.

This is wrong.

Are we done yet?
 
Last edited:

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom