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I can has rant now?


I knew I'd get caught out on *something*...

Lazy use of English, I suppose, but I was using it as shorthand for 'not being entirely callous and solely motivated by profit, but thinking about the wider consequences of one's approach, specifically considering the impact on resources and the environment'

Better?
 
You did ask, and I'd forgotten about it. I haven't seen any ectoparsites though, or I'd have remembered.

I'll get in touch wiht our poultry expert, and see if he can look out for thiat sort of stuff.

Meanwhile, if anyone wants any really juicy specimens of Fasciola hepatica, we have them coming out of our ears. Or rather our bile ducts. Global warming has a sin to answer for.

Rolfe.

Run, Rolfe, run!
Let one of those get you and the next thing you know you will have AIDS or cancer.
All cancers are alike. They are all caused by a parasite. A single parasite! It is the human intestinal fluke. And if you kill this parasite, the cancer stops immediately. The tissue becomes normal again. In order to get cancer, you must have this parasite
OK, it's not exactly the same one, but at least there is a cure.
 
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Scary anecdote- Overheard in Clyde Valley Garden Centre-
1st Lady "I thought you can't use chemicals if you're organic".
2nd Lady. "You can use the organic phosphates".

I'd stress these were customers, not staff.
Gods forfend I ever have to eat whatever they're growing.


That is simply sidesplitting
.

Wow. That reminded me of an old woo promotion I came across way back. I googled it, thinking I'd find the odd article describing the woo of the 1980s, and the kidney destruction the stuff caused. Instead I found a slew of promotional web sites.

I'm off to start a new thread.

Rolfe.
 
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Noted, and I don't disagree. The Venn diagram intersection of 'clueless amateur farmers' and 'organic' is probably large too.


Mmm. A very valid point. Perhaps I have been too willing to believe the (alleged?) positives. I certainly don't want my purchasing to imply that I 'support' homeopathy - couldn't be further from the truth. It hadn't really occurred to me that it would. I'm going to ask the butcher tomorrow if his suppliers use homeopathic 'remedies'. I don't think a 'yes' would be enough to make me switch back to standard supermarket meat though... but I could express my total disapproval and ask that he lets the farmers know (for all the good that will do)


Not all organic farmers use homoeopathy. Many are not that stupid. It's not whether or not any individual uses homoeopathy that I'm concerned about. It's supporting a system that in its very constitution promotes homoeopathy, not only as valid medicine, but as superior to the real stuff.

And, of course, knowing that the animals reared in these systems will have been deprived of normal preventative treatment (including vaccines, possibly - the organic movement is profoundly antivax), and quite possibly deprived of needed therapeutic treatment too.

I would ask people who insist on organic animal products if they would deprive their own pets of treatment for worms or a bacterial infection, or indeed would they so deprive themselves or their children?

Rolfe.
 
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Update on the hens. I spoke to the vet who took over the case. It was confirmed as being an uncomplicated stress-induced cannibalism. Caused by the bad weather. The cold and rain was discouraging the hens from using the outside space, with the result that the entire flock was crowding into the inside shed. All 2000 of them. And of course the inside space was too small for 2000 hens, the overcrowding stressed them, and they started eating each other.

Apparently there have been quite a few similar cases over the winter. There doesn't seem to be much they can do about it apart from wait for spring. I'll skip the other vet's rant about how the poor birds would be better off in battery cages, but this "free range" is what the public demand.

Rolfe.
 
Wow. That reminded me of an old woo promotion I came across way back. I googled it, thinking I'd find the odd article describing the woo of the 1980s, and the kidney destruction the stuff caused. Instead I found a slew of promotional web sites.

I'm off to start a new thread.

Rolfe.
Classic stuff:

It would be premature to consider organic germanium as a stand-along cure for cancer. However, it is clearly a product which should be part of a cancer treatment, especially considering its immunity-building properties and help in maintaining a positive mental attitude.
... stand along cure, what, so that's a cure that just stands along and watches cancer? Builds immunity and maintains a positive mental attitude, super! I wonder if it puts the cat out at night and does the ironing too?

Well, germanium, sorry, ORGANIC germanium, sounds great, I'm glad it's not a chemical or anything. Actually, I love germaniums, I used to grow them on my bedroom windowsill when I was a wee boy in Fife.

Yuri
 
I thought I was the only person who got aggravated by the misuse of "organic". As opposed to silicon-based?
When my son was about 5, he was at the supermarket with his mum, and he saw a sign for "organic meat". His response was "I suppose the inorganic meat is in the toy aisle."
 
Rolfe,

Aren't most homeopaths anti-vaxers? Does that carry over to homeopathic vets? Should we be expecting populations in areas with large amounts of free-range and organic poultry to start coming down with H5N1?

Just curious so's I can start buying sympathy/condolences cards...

Okay, that may be a little to grim to make a joke about, because frankly, it's frightening to me..... The thought that all these organic chicken herders might be avoiding treating their birds with such a tremendously pathogenic virus out there is rather worrisome.
 
*sigh*

If we're going to be deliberately obscure and useless, it's Influenza A subtype H5N1. If we're going to communicate usefully, it's the Bird Flu pandemic.

At the moment, its 63% mortality rate is disturbing, its 408 case sample size may not be ideal. After all, one notes if one gets a serious flu and DOESN'T die, one may not be laboratory tested to see if you got H5N1, or any other strain of that particular virus. There's anecdotal evidence that suggests a lot of the people simply don't particularly seek the level of treatment that includes specific viral strain testing. Influenza (common name: the flu) is something that has reasonably common symptoms, after all (see: flu).

As for Influenza A subtype H5N1, vaccines are pretty useless, the influenza virus is a rapidly mutating foe that frequently circumvents vaccines, rendering them more or less useless as a long-term preventative measure. I see no use in vaccinating current poultry farms in the US against a disease that almost certainly will have mutated by the time it gets here. If it does get here, mass slaughter of the population in the effected area is the only ideal treatment, the virus is far to rapidly mutating to count on any sort of vaccine being useful.


Also, it's bird flu.
 
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I'm not a poultry vet, but I don't believe there's a bird flu vaccine for poultry anyway.

Yes, homoeopathic vets are tremendously anti-vax. More so than homoeopathic doctors atually. While non-medical homoeopaths are very anti-vax, the party line of the medically qualified homoeopaths acknowledges that vaccines are valuable and safe. In this respect the veterinary-qualified homoeopaths are more like their lay counterparts.

It's actually the organic movement that is the main anti-vax headache. Most organic farms, after all, do not use homoeopathic vets. They use ordinary vets who sigh wearily when confronted with the woo in the "standards" they are supposed to be adhering to.

Until recently the organic line was that you were not allowed to vaccinate unless there was clear evidence that there was a disease risk. This meant in practice that your animals actually had to go down with the disease before you were allowed to use a vaccine. I understand that they've relaxed this a bit to make it easier to use vaccines, and I think the position now is that an organic farm can vaccinate if there is disease in the area.

The anti-vax stuff is total ideology. There is absolutely nothing that a vaccine can do to the animal produce that might make it in any way doubtful from a consumer point of view. But then, "organic" is all about ideology, not rationality.

The upside is that organic farms are not exempt from compulsory vaccination. For example, is has recently been made compulsory to vaccinate all stock against Bluetongue 8, and that includes organic farms. If there even was a compulsory vaccination for bird flu, then being organic would be no get-out.

Rolfe.
 
Update on the hens. I spoke to the vet who took over the case. It was confirmed as being an uncomplicated stress-induced cannibalism. Caused by the bad weather. The cold and rain was discouraging the hens from using the outside space, with the result that the entire flock was crowding into the inside shed. All 2000 of them. And of course the inside space was too small for 2000 hens, the overcrowding stressed them, and they started eating each other.

Apparently there have been quite a few similar cases over the winter. There doesn't seem to be much they can do about it apart from wait for spring. I'll skip the other vet's rant about how the poor birds would be better off in battery cages, but this "free range" is what the public demand.

Rolfe.

I've often thought poor homeless people would be better off locked-up in prison cells.:)

How about building sheds which are large enough to not stress the number of hens a farm has?

Or woolly* coats for the hens?




*Organic wool, obviously.
 
Maybe the outbreak isn't as serious in Europe, but China has been vaccinating poultry since 2004. They've produced(and I assume, used) over 20 billion doses of the stuff and they credit it with stemming the spread.

Here's the UN take on the topic - not nearly so glossy as the Chinese version, but positive, nevertheless.

http://www.fao.org/Newsroom/en/news/2007/1000527/index.html


Sorry - not fair to ask you something out of your range of expertise, so I'll withdraw the question (other than the generic response on the anti-vaxer mentality, which I appreciate).

GreyIce. "Sigh!" Right back at you. We sort of have Avian Flu on the mind over here, and I was pretty sure a vet would recognize H5N1 as the commonly used shorthand.
 
I was pretty sure a vet would recognize H5N1 as the commonly used shorthand.
The commonly used shorthand usually has H5N1 prefixed with "The Deadly.." and followed by "!!!" if being published in The Sun.

In the same way MRSA isn't MRSA, it is more correctly termed, "Deadly Super Bug MRSA" and MMR vaccine isn't just MMR, it's always, "The Controversial MMR vaccine".

Just for clarity don't you know.

Yuri
 
Maybe the outbreak isn't as serious in Europe, but China has been vaccinating poultry since 2004. They've produced(and I assume, used) over 20 billion doses of the stuff and they credit it with stemming the spread.

Here's the UN take on the topic - not nearly so glossy as the Chinese version, but positive, nevertheless.

http://www.fao.org/Newsroom/en/news/2007/1000527/index.html


Sorry - not fair to ask you something out of your range of expertise, so I'll withdraw the question (other than the generic response on the anti-vaxer mentality, which I appreciate).

GreyIce. "Sigh!" Right back at you. We sort of have Avian Flu on the mind over here, and I was pretty sure a vet would recognize H5N1 as the commonly used shorthand.
Commonly used where? We have a variety of readers, from a variety of countries. Influenza A subtype H5N1 is a little formal, but it gives people who are even broadly aware of the subject a general idea of what it is (an Influenza variant that effects birds and humans). Avian or bird flu is pretty sloppy, but is at least a useful common vernacular term. HN51 assumes rather a lot about your readers.

The vaccine is indeed useful for fighting the spread, somewhat. Still less useful than the mass slaughter credited with eradicating it in several places, and vaccinating american birds would be worthless. As I noted, vaccines are a short-term solution with Influenza - they're worthless in a matter of months. Also what the Chinese government says about what may or may not be happening in a situation that might have the potential to look bad for China is worse than useless. Of course the vaccines are helping, because the Chinese government wouldn't create 20 billion doses of an ineffectual vaccine, and if you think they wouldn't happily state an ineffectual vaccine program was doing pretty well, well, you missed China. I'll simply note vaccines have never been that useful against influenza in the past - even yearly flu shots are at best a mediocre form of protection. They're certainly no form of long-term containment. Then again I remained reasonably unconcerned about yet another variety of influenza.

Speculating what people might do in a hypothetical situation based on what other people tangentially related to them have done in not-really-similar situations and then dragging bird flu into it kind of strikes me as fear mongering of the worst sort. I think it's far more useful to criticize people for what they do, rather than what they might do based on ideals they've never espoused in situations they've never been in.
 
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Commonly used where? We have a variety of readers, from a variety of countries. Influenza A subtype H5N1 is a little formal, but it gives people who are even broadly aware of the subject a general idea of what it is (an Influenza variant that effects birds and humans). Avian or bird flu is pretty sloppy, but is at least a useful common vernacular term. HN51 assumes rather a lot about your readers.

The vaccine is indeed useful for fighting the spread, somewhat. Still less useful than the mass slaughter credited with eradicating it in several places, and vaccinating american birds would be worthless. As I noted, vaccines are a short-term solution with Influenza - they're worthless in a matter of months. Also what the Chinese government says about what may or may not be happening in a situation that might have the potential to look bad for China is worse than useless. Of course the vaccines are helping, because the Chinese government wouldn't create 20 billion doses of an ineffectual vaccine, and if you think they wouldn't happily state an ineffectual vaccine program was doing pretty well, well, you missed China. I'll simply note vaccines have never been that useful against influenza in the past - even yearly flu shots are at best a mediocre form of protection. They're certainly no form of long-term containment. Then again I remained reasonably unconcerned about yet another variety of influenza.

Speculating what people might do in a hypothetical situation based on what other people tangentially related to them have done in not-really-similar situations and then dragging bird flu into it kind of strikes me as fear mongering of the worst sort. I think it's far more useful to criticize people for what they do, rather than what they might do based on ideals they've never espoused in situations they've never been in.

My bad, but..... Jeez, I live in Hong Kong. It's Bird Flu Central over here. I used a term that is very commonly recognized in these parts. We have just about daily news articles and tv spots on the subject and they frequently use just H5N1 in the headline or tag. In fact, we have daily health spots in three languages on all channels over here, the way you have jaywalking, drunk driving, and other public service notices.

Further, I really did address the question to Rolfe (the giveaway being the opening "Rolfe comma" sort of like, well, a message addressed to Rolfe), a person I know to be a veterinarian, and who I just assumed would recognize the "nick".

As to the efficacy of vaccinating "bird flu":

1. How long has H5N1 been around? Has it actually mutated? I don't believe so. Much talk about it doing so and much concern, but it's pretty much the same Influenza A subtype H5N1, I believe. (This is not a facetious question. I do not know the answer, but I legitimately haven't heard that the actual virus has mutated.)

2. That wasn't a Chinese government link I provided. It was the UN FAO site. I don't know why they'd be glossing over results for Big China Pharma.

3. As to general flu shots/vaccinations for humans(I say "general" because the H5N1 vaccine is currently being tested and is not yet available), while I can say that I know half a dozen medical professionals who say they have no effect, I know six* others who say that properly applied, they are very effective.
*Okay that's disingenuos. Actually that's five plus the CDC, who state that vaccines matched properly to the strain of flu being combatted can show a 70 to 90 per cent efficacy.
Overall, in years when the vaccine and circulating viruses are well-matched, influenza vaccines can be expected to reduce laboratory-confirmed influenza by approximately 70% to 90% in healthy adults <65 years of age. Several studies have also found reductions in febrile illness, influenza-related work absenteeism, antibiotic use, and doctor visits.
http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/PROFESSIONALS/VACCINATION/effectivenessqa.htm

4. And since the vaccine being used to treat the poultry is VERY specific to that strain, it's quite reasonable that the claims of the Chinese and the FAO report are accurate as far as they go.

Fear mongering? I asked a question! Over here, Bird Flu is under the category of Current Events. And I would genuinely worry if homeopathic veterinary medicine started to take hold in the organic/free range field, because vaccination is the most efficient way to fight many diseases. Bird Flu is simply the one I'm most familiar with.

We live with the threat of bird flu/avian influenza over here. Just as we went through SARS. It's sort of an every day topic, as I said; not the bogie man. (Besides, vaccinating all them chickens once each is a lot easier than rounding them up and doing accupuncture, which we'd certainly prefer. :spjimlad::spjimlad: )
 
The HARDEST PART of containing bird flu is the fast mutation rate. If it was just a matter of developing a vaccine and calling it a day it would be done already.

http://www.avianinfluenza.org/mutated-avian-influenza-virus-h5n1.php

"The influenza virus genome has remarkable plasticity because of a high mutation rate and its segmentation into 8 separate RNA molecules. This segmentation allows frequent genetic exchange by segment reassortment in hosts co-infected with 2 different influenza viruses."

In July 2004, researchers led by H. Deng of the Harbin Veterinary Research Institute, Harbin, China and Professor Robert Webster of the St Jude Children's Research Hospital, Memphis, Tennessee, reported results of experiments in which mice had been exposed to 21 isolates of confirmed H5N1 strains obtained from ducks in China between 1999 and 2002. They found "a clear temporal pattern of progressively increasing pathogenicity" Results reported by Dr. Webster in July 2005 reveal further progression toward pathogenicity in mice and longer virus shedding by ducks.

Needless to say 21 strains in 2004 is tip, iceburg.

Flu vaccines, matched to the strain of flu they are combatting, are highly effective. Flu vaccines, against the Influenza virus? Well we've had vaccines since the 19th century?

Influenza? If you piled up the mortality rate of every war that occurred in the 20th century, and threw every AIDS death on top of that, you'd have a stack next to the number of people that Influenza has killed this century. It'd be the smaller of the two.

As I said, one MORE strain of Influenza? Vaccines are for life (more or less, there's some inaccuracies inherent here). We have flu shots every year. Flu shots are batch vaccines against influenza strains.
 
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GreyICE seems to be handling the bird flu questions just fine, so I'll leave him to it!

The commonly used shorthand usually has H5N1 prefixed with "The Deadly.." and followed by "!!!" if being published in The Sun.

In the same way MRSA isn't MRSA, it is more correctly termed, "Deadly Super Bug MRSA" and MMR vaccine isn't just MMR, it's always, "The Controversial MMR vaccine".

Just for clarity don't you know.


You missed one. "MSSA"

You know, that "close relative" of "deadly superbug MRSA"

Methicillin Sensitive Staphylococcus Aureus.

Or bog-standard Staph to anybody else.

Rolfe.
 

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