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I can has rant now?

Thinking about it more dispassionately, this is really a failure of the free range designation, and strictly speaking isn't directly related to organics or homoeopathy. The big problem with organic livestock husbandry is the prohibition or discouragement of the use of prophylactic or therepeutic medication. And that the content-free woo of homoeopathy is encouraged as a way of not treating the animals while pretending that you are.


What certification scheme is being used for organic farming in the UK? Do they expressly forbid the use of non-homeopathic treatments?

Just looked up the guidelines provided by the dominant certification provider here in NZ, BioGro. They send mixed signals. On the one hand they do allow for conventional treatments when needed, on the other hand their first recommendation is homeopathy (which of course translates to "do nothing and pray, then throw up hands and try to salvage"). It reads to me like a laudable focus on prevention marred by fashionable stupidity.

In this case, I believe the homeopathy actually is the main problem.

What would you make of these FAQ guidelines - would that strike a veterinarian as unwise?

(from http://www.bio-gro.co.nz/content/files/Livestock_Guide_021018.pdf)

Animal Health: Animal welfare is uppermost. The Bio-Gro Standards clearly state that animals which are unhealthy must be treated if necessary with conventional animal health treatments

Animals treated with conventional treatments (e.g. antibiotics) must be quarantined in a separate quarantine paddock for double the withholding period of the treatment, and they lose certification for this period plus a further 12 months. It is important to select treatments which will be effective but have the shortest possible withholding period.

Worms: The main focus is on selecting for breeding stock which exhibit resistance, and on having clean pastures.
The critical period is the first autumn for young stock. Ensure that calves and lambs have been reared well, only graze clean pastures, and have plenty to eat.

Lice: Not usually a problem if worms aren’t. Some allowed treatments are pyrethrum, dusting sulphur and vegetable oils. Rub poles are effective and timing of shearing to reduce the lice burden can be effective.

Vaccines: Are allowed where needed, e.g. lepto vaccine for OSH requirements.

Bloat: Only using biological fertilisers should reduce the likelihood of this problem. Avoid clover or lucerne dominant pastures. If necessary, vegetable oils or paraffin can be used.

ETA: Ooh, 500! What a shame to spend that post on coloured water :p
 
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Extremely unwise. Although most guidelines do accept using proper medicine "when necessary", the animals generally have to become ill before "necessary" is established. This is bad practice. Sensible prophylactic measures can save everyone a shedload of grief.

The airy way they talk about breeding resistant stock and clean pastures, you'd think it was simple and everybody else was just using anthelmintics because they like giving the drug companies money. Everybody tries to minimise anthelmintic usage in this way. However, these measures are often not enough. A rational farmer will monitor the flock and go in with medication if the results suggest a problem is on the horizon. An organic farmer is motivated to wait until he can't ignore the problem any longer, and even then is likely to ask if there isn't something "natural" he can do instead of using drugs that actually work.

And as for deciding to treat animals that are actually ill? Pray that you're never reincarnated as an organic calf.

Animals treated with conventional treatments (e.g. antibiotics) must be quarantined in a separate quarantine paddock for double the withholding period of the treatment, and they lose certification for this period plus a further 12 months.


Now, if you were a farmer operating under these rules, would you be happy to treat a sick animal as soon as it appeared to be ill, or would you perhaps be motivated to hang on as long as possible in the hope that it might get better on its own? You lose a whole year (and more) production from such an animal. Which might mean all its production, if it is something that would normally go to slaughter within the year.

In fact the statutory withdrawal periods have been very carefully researched. Following these regulations does indeed ensure that no drug residues get into the human food chain. The rest is pure ideological nonsense.

Commercial-scale dairy production pretty much needs antibiotics to control mastitis. Fine, if you're milking 1940s-type dairy shorthorns with the fair hands of a milkmaid. But if you have commercial numbers of Friesian Holsteins giving 30 litres a day, you're in a different ball-game. It's actually the minority of dairy cows who can go through their lives without needing a course of antibiotics.

Losing organic status for a year in that case is a total disaster for the farmer. I suspect what happens if an animal needs such treatment is that it just gets sold to a non-organic producer. Yes, wouldn't it be great if the whole world's production could be organic.

:hb:

Rolfe.
 
The protocols for antibiotic use in the dairy industry are designed to minimise the risk of resistance developing. Most mastitis isolates are uncomplicated and susceptible to a range of common antibiotics, even in 2009.

Just thinking, about dairy cows and evil chemicals.

Do you think calcium borogluconate is an evil chemical? BSM? Yuri?

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe, I buy only free-range eggs, mainly because I think they taste distinctly better, and I was always under the impression that free-range animals were always better off. However, your post has piqued my interest a bit.

Is there any way to know from what conditions the eggs I am buying are coming? Is there a way to find out from what farm the eggs come, and what conditions the farm is experiencing? What I mean is, is there a sort of "database" that records inspection reports, etc. from various farms that is available to the consumer?
 
Rolfe, I buy only free-range eggs, mainly because I think they taste distinctly better, and I was always under the impression that free-range animals were always better off. However, your post has piqued my interest a bit.

Is there any way to know from what conditions the eggs I am buying are coming? Is there a way to find out from what farm the eggs come, and what conditions the farm is experiencing? What I mean is, is there a sort of "database" that records inspection reports, etc. from various farms that is available to the consumer?


Not really, unless you're literally buying them at the farm gate. The best you can do is to choose a high-welfare label, and hope that the rifle hasn't been dropped. Freedom Foods is usually pretty reasonable.

I have a degree of scepticism that it's possible to tell the difference between free range and cage husbandry by the taste of the eggs, but it's worth it for the animal welfare. This wasn't supposed to be a "don't buy free-range" rant. I was just completely stunned, and yet at the same time not actually surprised, that an outfit that had gone the whole organic homoeopathy nine yards could nevertheless have such self-evidently poor environment.

Rolfe.
 
Wait... wait. Some organizations suggest the use of homeopathy on animals? Say what?? Why the :rule10 would anyone consider doing that?? They wouldn't even get the benefit of a placebo effect with those patients, much less any real alleviation of symptoms.
 
Do you think calcium borogluconate is an evil chemical? BSM? Yuri?

Rolfe.
Nope - calcium is a mineral and minerals are good and natural, and glucose gives you energy so that's good too (well that's what it says on a lucozade bottle). Woah, wait though, it's made by big pharma :eek:. Kindly disregard the above - clearly evil.

Don't get me started on 'organic' - my favourite organic anecdote is when I was talking to one of our organic farmers about copper deficiency in his calves, for which many farmers looking for a low tech solution would use copper sulphate, a very simple mineral; you couldn't get a more straightforward, elegant and natural treatment for this condition. Our organic client told me he was using homeopathic copper - I mean, talk about overcomplicating things - what-is-the-point!?

(Of course he also used real copper when the stock got really ill but he still swore blind what wonderful stuff that homeopathy was - :mad:)

My other organic anecdote is when I wrote an article for a chicken magazine about homeopathy in organic chicken production after they'd been told by a certain veterinary pathologist that I was the man for the job! :)

Yuri
 
Rolfe, I buy only free-range eggs, mainly because I think they taste distinctly better, and I was always under the impression that free-range animals were always better off. However, your post has piqued my interest a bit.

Is there any way to know from what conditions the eggs I am buying are coming? Is there a way to find out from what farm the eggs come, and what conditions the farm is experiencing? What I mean is, is there a sort of "database" that records inspection reports, etc. from various farms that is available to the consumer?
ETA - PM'd.
 
Next time I go to eat at a very nice local tea-room which boasts that it uses "organic" milk, I intend to take my own milk with me, and tell them why.

Rolfe.

:rolleyes:

^

eyeroll
 
Couldn't agree more. I hate the way the term "organic" has been hijacked by the "knit-your-own-sandals yummie mummies" [thanks Rolfe!] brigade. It used to have a proper, well defined meaning, now it's all vague and sneaky (and is usually written on the side of a green box). I take great pleasure in informing organic types that petrol is an organic molecule - they get so confused, it doesn't seem right to them, not cuddly and fluffy at all!

Yuri

Yuri, I think I love you. :)

I thought I was the only person who got aggravated by the misuse of "organic". As opposed to silicon-based?
 

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