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I can has rant now?

I couldn't find this thread today because I looked for it in General Skepticism. Where it perhaps should be.
 
Thursday, I have to cover for someone at a VI centre where I don't normally work. I show up about half an hour late, to see a farmer offloading a couple of dead hens. I swear a bit because I hate hens, and where I normally work we usually manage to offload them because DEFRA has some real hen experts nearby.
If this lot is heading DEFRA's way then once they get involved with their welfare as well as pathologist hats on then surely it will be a case of this guy either gets his act together or gets done for animal cruelty. Cannibalism just isn't acceptible, even DEFRA has to act in this situation, hasn't it?

Yuri
 
Awful.

I'd like to recommend the Skeptoid podcast on Free Range Chicken and Farm Raised Fish

There is also one on Organic Food Myths

Thank you for this. There is a group of parents at my kids school that are trying to introduce organic foods at the school cafeteria. I'm suggesting that they should do a little research before they do and unnecessarily raise the costs for our kids' lunches. These may provide me with ammunition.
 
personally i think it's a good thing to avoid pesticides whenever possible. you obviously don't.
meow
Always the sting in the tail. Why don't you try asking a question without implying that the person you are asking the question of is an idiot before you've even heard the answer. That way it looks like you're prepared to listen to the answer.

I agree that it is a good thing to avoid pesticides (or any other pharmaceutical) whenever possible but "whenever possible" doesn't include not using pesticides if animal welfare will be compromised as a result.

Yuri

ps. You need to get your shift key looked at...

Meeow (probably)
 
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personally i think it's a good thing to avoid pesticides whenever possible. you obviously don't.


meow
There are "organic" pesticides that are still "chemicals", but for some reason get called "organic" since they are not as effective, but may be better than nothing. I don't get the fuss or the difference between the "synthetic" and "all natural" myself. If you made water with hydrogen and oxygen in a lab, it's still just water, just with less weird stuff that you'll find in a pond that will give you diarrhea. It's not totally like homeopathic meds (totally ineffective) vs. real meds. But kind of the same idea. One is allowed, and one isn't for reasons that shouldn't matter since the animals suffer on homeopathic "meds".

Some plants we eat have their own pesticides. People have yet to prove why pesticides should be considered teh evil.
 
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Just guessing here, but the word "pesticide" is automatically synonymous in many people's minds with "petroleum-derived", so perhaps that's Meow's issue.
 
There are "organic" pesticides that are still "chemicals", but for some reason get called "organic" since they are not as effective, but may be better than nothing. I don't get the fuss or the difference between the "synthetic" and "all natural" myself...
Couldn't agree more. I hate the way the term "organic" has been hijacked by the "knit-your-own-sandals yummie mummies" [thanks Rolfe!] brigade. It used to have a proper, well defined meaning, now it's all vague and sneaky (and is usually written on the side of a green box). I take great pleasure in informing organic types that petrol is an organic molecule - they get so confused, it doesn't seem right to them, not cuddly and fluffy at all!

Yuri
 
Finally (it was a busy day) I get round to looking at the hens. Oh my freaking sainted aunt! They've got some wing feathers, but that's about it. Otherwise, they're virtually bald. What feathers they have are plastered with mud. I've never seen such gruesome specimens in my life, not even the rejects from battery cages. They're not emaciated, I agree, but they're pretty thin.

I start looking for skin parasites, but find nothing. The skin is relatively normal, just with broken feather shafts sticking out all over. But the real sick-making thing is that the vents have been pecked at so that the abdominal cavities have been entered in both birds. Closer inspection reveals that most of the intestines are missing - the birds have been disembowelled. Oviducts have also been sliced open.

Even closer inspection reveals feathers in the gizzards of the dead birds. The injuries are typical cannibalism.

This is a really horrible consequence of very very bad environment in poultry farming. It brings a whole new dimension to the term "pecking order". The birds attack each other, pull each other's feathers out, and eventually peck each other round the vent severely enough to kill.

I repeat, the cause is managemental. It is bad environment. It is really bad environment.

I'm not entirely comfortable with your assessment, if it's based only on the birds you saw, and not an examination of the farm itself.

I've raised chickens. Growing up, my parents typically got the Cornish hybrids; when on an acreage myself, I raised purelines.

In both cases, though, the chickens were truly free-range. Once they got big enough to be safe from predators (the stray raccoon, mostly) the coop door was kept open and they roamed free.

Hybrids, though, are known to have developmental problems, and some become crippled.

These poor beggars would be pecked mercilessly by the healthier chickens. And yes, they would have feathers pecked into the skin.

The injuries that you're calling cannibalism, I've seen simply when a chicken dies of natural causes and is left lying around the coop for a couple days; this happens even when the chickens are not confined.

So it may be that there is an over-crowding problem. Or it may be some other problem causing the chickens to become weaker and become victimized by their healthier companions.

The birds you saw, were they purebreds or hybrids? The purebreds tend to be thinner - especially if they're free range and allowed to be active. For a while would get a mix of chicks, until I saw the differences in behavior. The purebreds would roam around the coop, while the hybrids would park themselves in front of the feeders and gorge. They tend to be thinner, less meat and a bit tougher.
 
There are "organic" pesticides that are still "chemicals", but for some reason get called "organic" since they are not as effective, but may be better than nothing. I don't get the fuss or the difference between the "synthetic" and "all natural" myself.

The problem is with chlorinated hydrocarbons, or compounds with benzyl groups, in that they tend to take longer to break down - that is, be digested by bacteria.

It's the same thing that makes them more potent. 2,4-D is used in plant tissue culture because it has an auxin-like effect, but at higher doses is an herbicide. The 2,4 part refers to positions of chlorine moeties that make the molecule more difficult for plant cells to metabolize, so it has a longer lasting effect with smaller doses.
 
Does this guy not realize that his birds are eating each other? What actions or inspections will now be taken?
One of a large number of concepts I've been recently introduced to in a book I'm currently reading: The Omnivore's Dilemma, by Michael Pollan (some of which I still haven't thoroughly fact-checked, but intend to), is that the use of rendered animal proteins as additives in animal feeds is standard practice. When I raised chickens, they got most of the table scraps, which often included chicken, especially those parts of a carcass too bony to go to the dogs. They were decidedly unsqueamish about this, though any doubts about that would just as easily been put to rest by observing their behavior toward one of their own who had received an injury involving visible bleeding. In my observation, chicken is a favorite food for chickens.

But they're chickens. What do you expect? Certainly one would think that things would be very much different with cows. It would, too, if formulators of cattle feeds didn't have ideas of their own. Until concerns about Mad Cow disease prompted the FDA to ban the practice in 1997, cattle feeds typically included rendered products such as bone meal and bovine meat meal. Since then, the only rendered cow parts allowed in cattle feed are those derived from blood products and fat (can I get an "eeeewwww!") According to Pollan, it all traces to the way the USDA's standards for grading beef reward "marbling" (which is basically a euphemism for intramuscular fat).

He also does a thorough dismantling of the whole "organic" thing in a chapter titled "Big Organic" -- in which he introduces a delightful term: "Supermarket Pastoral".
 
I'm not entirely comfortable with your assessment, if it's based only on the birds you saw, and not an examination of the farm itself.

I've raised chickens. Growing up, my parents typically got the Cornish hybrids; when on an acreage myself, I raised purelines.

In both cases, though, the chickens were truly free-range. Once they got big enough to be safe from predators (the stray raccoon, mostly) the coop door was kept open and they roamed free.

Hybrids, though, are known to have developmental problems, and some become crippled.

These poor beggars would be pecked mercilessly by the healthier chickens. And yes, they would have feathers pecked into the skin.

The injuries that you're calling cannibalism, I've seen simply when a chicken dies of natural causes and is left lying around the coop for a couple days; this happens even when the chickens are not confined.

So it may be that there is an over-crowding problem. Or it may be some other problem causing the chickens to become weaker and become victimized by their healthier companions.

The birds you saw, were they purebreds or hybrids? The purebreds tend to be thinner - especially if they're free range and allowed to be active. For a while would get a mix of chicks, until I saw the differences in behavior. The purebreds would roam around the coop, while the hybrids would park themselves in front of the feeders and gorge. They tend to be thinner, less meat and a bit tougher.


Pure bred Columbian Black. Though to be honest, given the state of them it was hard even to make out the colour.

Someone else will be going out to look at the farm and see what's really what. I did consider the possibility that the birds had been predated post mortem. However, it was the farmer himself who told me that the entire group were in very poor condition (as regards plumage), and that they were pecking each other. Also, the dead birds themselves had been doing their share - there were black feathers in the gizzards. In addition, the carcasses were very fresh, and the farmer told me that he'd brought these two because they'd just died. He was certainly keeping good records, and I don't think he was leavng dead birds lying around.

I certainly suspect that there had been a bit of pecking going on after death - I hope so, anyway, as I wouldn't like to thing the disembowelling had happened to live birds. But the sheer extent of the damage given the very fresh carcasses was worrying. I've got testing in hand to look for underlying disease, but grossly there didn't appear to be any sign of any other disease.

Thinking about it more dispassionately, this is really a failure of the free range designation, and strictly speaking isn't directly related to organics or homoeopathy. The big problem with organic livestock husbandry is the prohibition or discouragement of the use of prophylactic or therepeutic medication. And that the content-free woo of homoeopathy is encouraged as a way of not treating the animals while pretending that you are.

However, I have no evidence that these hens were suffering from anything that required medication. So that criticism isn't really appropriate. However, free range really should be high-welfare husbandry, and hens in such systems should not be into vent-pecking.

Normally I would recommend buying free-range poultry products. However, one of the advantages of caged systems is that the birds can't physically get at each other to act out negative behavioural patterns if they feel the urge. With free range, it's harder. You have to minimise the chance of them feeling the urge.

It may turn out that there's something fairly simple causing this problem, that can be fixed. The poultry experts will be able to tell.

Yes, the problem wasn't directly related to either the organic status or the homoeopathy. It's just that, in the light of bitter past experience, my reaction was - animals in a shocking condition? Organic? Homoeopathy? Why am I not surprised about this?

Rolfe.
 
If this lot is heading DEFRA's way then once they get involved with their welfare as well as pathologist hats on then surely it will be a case of this guy either gets his act together or gets done for animal cruelty. Cannibalism just isn't acceptible, even DEFRA has to act in this situation, hasn't it?

Yuri


Not sure if DEFRA will get involved as DEFRA's writ runs weakly in this neck of the woods. I'm going to put a welfare coding on the case, and sorting it out will give us brownie points for enhancing animal welfare.

However, the priority is getting the guy's act sorted out. We're very very reluctant to initiate cruelty accusations on anything a farmer voluntarily brings in - if it got round that bringing a dead animal in to get help for a problem might get you done for cruelty, there would be a disincentive to bring things in and real problems might go underground.

I don't think the farmer was being deliberately cruel. Although he had a lot of birds, he didn't have a local accent, and he had something of the "townie come to play farmer" about him. He didn't really seem to realise what sort of a problem he had, even though he was able to describe the vent-pecking and the feather-plucking to me. I think ignorance was a big factor.

It will probably not be too hard to sort out the environment, and I'd be very surprised if he doesn't take the advice. It would only be if things didn't improve that charges of cruelty might be mentioned.

Once the environment is right he can get on with trying to maintain good health in his birds with nothing but shaken-up magic water. Let's hope he doesn't get any infectious disease in the unit or we'll be seeing a lot more of him.

I'm still boggling, though. Eggs from these pathetic, stressed, bald, unhealthy individuals are commanding premium " organic free range" prices, and people buying them are probably feeling good about paying the extra because they fondly imagine the chickens are living in idyllic conditions.

:hb:

Rolfe.
 
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Rolfe it is quite hard for those of us who are not well educated in this area. I do not buy organic stuff because I do not think it makes any sense to deprive animals of medicine. But I do buy "free range" eggs because the idea of battery cages does not appeal to me.

I had honestly thought that there were enforced standards for "free range" which meant that hens had a reasonable amount of space and spent some of their time outdoors. If this is not the case then what is best to do if that is what you want?
 
Wow. This is an eye-opener. I'm naive about this stuff. I live in the Boston area. We shop at Whole Foods, because it seems less gross overall than Stop and Shop. Are there any rules of thumb I should observe about what I buy? (I don't expect to become expert in this subject.) Given the choice, should I avoid the organic produce there? Is free-range generally a scam, or was it only in this case?


Free range is not normally a scam. In general, it is a higher welfare standard. Of course that really only applies to chickens and pigs in Britain. Cattle and sheep are never kept in conditions so intensive as to give rise to any welfare concerns.

However, when it goes wrong it can go very very wrong. Animals outside in very bad weather, or up to their knees in mud. In this case, it was the very freedom that enabled the hens to attack each other.

I wouldn't avoid free range though, I'd generally go for it. Most problems do get fixed, as this one will.

I would never knowlingly eat any "organic" animal-based product however. The entiire philosophy of demonising medicinal products as "evil chemicals" (see meow's "pesticide" remark earlier) and thus depriving animals of prophylactic and therapeutic treatment is pernicious. Then when you realise that they are also profoundly anti-vax and promote homoeopathy, well, words fail me.

Next time I go to eat at a very nice local tea-room which boasts that it uses "organic" milk, I intend to take my own milk with me, and tell them why.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe it is quite hard for those of us who are not well educated in this area. I do not buy organic stuff because I do not think it makes any sense to deprive animals of medicine. But I do buy "free range" eggs because the idea of battery cages does not appeal to me.

I had honestly thought that there were enforced standards for "free range" which meant that hens had a reasonable amount of space and spent some of their time outdoors. If this is not the case then what is best to do if that is what you want?


As I said, this case was a failure of the free range system. It can be fixed and it will be fixed. I buy free range too, because I think that battery cages should be banned.

Thinking about it, my reaction was mainly based on, this guy has a management problem he doesn't understand, and his birds are clearly in behavioural hell. And he's organic. What a surprise.

Rolfe.
 
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Yuri said:
Couldn't agree more. I hate the way the term "organic" has been hijacked by the "knit-your-own-sandals yummie mummies" [thanks Rolfe!] brigade. It used to have a proper, well defined meaning, now it's all vague and sneaky (and is usually written on the side of a green box). I take great pleasure in informing organic types that petrol is an organic molecule - they get so confused, it doesn't seem right to them, not cuddly and fluffy at all!
My dad has his doctorate in organic chemistry. He feels so smug now.

~~ Paul
 
I have a vague memory of having asked you or someone else here before, but in case I didn't:

When you find parasites on domestic fowl, would it be possible for you to send them to me? I work with bird lice, and hens and their relatives have several very curious ones that belong to the family Goniodidae (also found on doves and pigeons). I have been meaning to get in touch with vets in my own country, but I never seem to actually do it, and I would very much like to have some Goniodids from all over the world for my collection. I have some from Japanese pheasants and quails, but none from European birds, or domestic birds.


You did ask, and I'd forgotten about it. I haven't seen any ectoparsites though, or I'd have remembered.

I'll get in touch wiht our poultry expert, and see if he can look out for thiat sort of stuff.

Meanwhile, if anyone wants any really juicy specimens of Fasciola hepatica, we have them coming out of our ears. Or rather our bile ducts. Global warming has a sin to answer for.

Rolfe.
 
Couldn't agree more. I hate the way the term "organic" has been hijacked by the "knit-your-own-sandals yummie mummies" [thanks Rolfe!] brigade. It used to have a proper, well defined meaning, now it's all vague and sneaky (and is usually written on the side of a green box). I take great pleasure in informing organic types that petrol is an organic molecule - they get so confused, it doesn't seem right to them, not cuddly and fluffy at all!

Yuri

You should see the reaction I get when I tell people that WATER is a chemical, and not an organic one. They tell me I'm an idiot and/or crazy, and didn't pay attention in chemistry class. :rolleyes: I need that exploding irony meter.
 

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