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I Am Soul

Whether an act is silly, disruptive or off-topic is a matter of interpretation, Navigator. Our concept of self is under constant negotiation and different people bring different things to the figurative negotiation table. We have the benefit of being, seemingly, wonderfully malleable in this regard. Silliness, disruptiveness and being off-topic are methods of influencing what's on the figurative negotiation table.

The difficulty is not so much about what is true or not (in the Idealist universe you paint for us), but rather the implications of accepting and/or adopting this or that concept of self. Having seen no evidence for any kind of existence beyond the one we are familiar with (not having experienced the passenger you posit in any way whatsoever, and not able to prove in any meaningful way the existence of that passenger to others), I am not convinced that there is a passenger, nor (by extension) that there is another transcendent existence that supervenes on or is independent of the reality we experience - even if we could come up with a coherent understanding of what an "existence independent of reality" might be.

If I understand you correctly, you have now come to accept that a thing can "exist" without a consciousness to recognize it's existence. Speaking this way entails a meaning of existence independent of experience of existing. One can stipulate a meaning of "exist" such that existence is contingent on some experience of that existence. Whether that stipulation maps directly onto reality is an open and extra-system question. The important question at that point is which of these stipulations provides efficacy. What are the consequences of stipulating this stipulation instead that one.

You put forward the analogies of the driver, the passenger and the vehicle. That's all wonderfully imaginative, but there is no reason to suppose that these analogies hold true. The driver and the vehicle may very well be the same thing. That has been suggested by others. If you have the distrust of mere language that you have suggested you do (if I have read you correctly) then you understand that an analogy is not the thing itself. It is, at the very best, an imperfect descriptor. The difficulty with the descriptors/analogies you have posited is that they have little, if any kind of verifiable relationship to reality.

I can see you balking at the word "verifiable" as I type it (in my brain's eye). While it is true that our experience of reality is subjective, we seem to acquire a greater measure of human efficacy with reality when we measure things in terms of inter-subjectivity coupled with a determination to reference external referents (Realism). We suppose that there is a world as it is (Skeptics are, admittedly, Realists who recognize a reality as it is, but recognize also that our knowledge of that reality is inherently flawed). Scientific skepticism posits that we can conditionally "know" something of that reality, by means of evidential bases that seek to remove as much subjectivity as possible. While it may not be possible to remove all subjectivity, we can move in stages away from a purely subjective, intuitionist "method" to greater degrees of inter-subjectivity moving towards, but never achieving objectivity. That exercise has done wonders for modifying our (humanity's) ability to be efficacious in a "Realist" existence (in terms of that existence, of course).

We can posit another existence beyond that of the vehicle, the road, the destination and so forth, but we really have nothing but wishful thinking to support this positing. The passenger is an imaginative and eloquent invention, but that is all it is until we have some reason to suspect it actually exits. Until we establish a referent, we don't even have a metaphor, let alone a reality. The important thing, amidst the rampant speculation, is to ask one question: "What if we are mistaken about the existence of the passenger? What if there is no existence beyond our material lives?"

If that is the case, then casually dismissing our material lives is the highest tragedy imaginable, is it not? No, I shall correct myself immediately, with a deferential nod to humanity as a social species (a bias on my part). Dismissing the material lives of others would be the highest tragedy imaginable. Given the risks involved - what's at stake, do you not think it is reasonable to require something more than speculation before surrendering the value of our, and others', lives, the only ones we can reasonably verify?

We have to kick the tires, because for all we know, the crash might very well be the end of the road, vehicle, driver and passenger. I cannot take that risk, at least not on behalf of others.

Hopefully, that was not silly, disruptive or off-topic.

I'll respectfully request that you do not class me with maatorc. That's downright insulting. At least I can define a skeptic, pseudo, real or otherwise.


To try to...
Win Powerball!!!
...when the probability of winning is next to zero, is to pay a "stupid tax."


While I very much enjoy most of your writing, I do disagree with your opinion of Powerball, or rather that participation is a "stupid tax."

Powerball is simply a raffle. If you want the chance of winning a prize, you need to buy a ticket. If you don't want the chance of winning a prize, then you don't buy a ticket.

It is in many ways a tax, but one that people have the choice of paying or not. Millions opt to pay it. Most of the money helps our society to function, just like any mandatory tax. Even greater millions (not sure if this is so) choose not to pay this tax, and that is fair enough.

As I have said before, my number will probably come up before my numbers come up. That is how I choose to live my life.


M.
 
articulett
There is only one truth and that's LOVE.

Stop being so angry.
If every one that you speak of is delusional then this world is in for trouble.
Just because you haven't experienced any thing that may prove god or a higher conscienceness doesn't mean you won't and if you do, believe me you'll have to re-think your whole position on your own beliefs.
Seems to me you need to.
If one thing hasn't worked for you try another approach.
Try using the word believer instead of Woo it is nicer.
No ones trying to scare you, woo is what the evil ghosts say to scare you.
There is nothing to be paranoid of.

Sounds like some one needs a good spanking and then to cry out to God, “ oh my God”, because of overwhelming joy, then a cigarette afterwards.

But seriously I was joking, but that overwhelming joy is what a beliver feels when we know that this is not all there is and there must be more.
 
While I very much enjoy most of your writing, I do disagree with your opinion of Powerball, or rather that participation is a "stupid tax."

Powerball is simply a raffle. If you want the chance of winning a prize, you need to buy a ticket. If you don't want the chance of winning a prize, then you don't buy a ticket.

It is in many ways a tax, but one that people have the choice of paying or not. Millions opt to pay it. Most of the money helps our society to function, just like any mandatory tax. Even greater millions (not sure if this is so) choose not to pay this tax, and that is fair enough.

As I have said before, my number will probably come up before my numbers come up. That is how I choose to live my life.


M.
I buy one or two a week, but here it's the lottery, it does help with taxes or benifits to schools and such, an increase in state taxes for what ever the purpose.
If you don't take a chance you don't have a chance.
 
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If every one that you speak of is delusional then this world is in for trouble.

Pardon for butting in, but IMO the planet is already in very serious trouble, and I don't see any living beings other than humans as being responsible. Isn't that odd? Creatures without supposed "souls" appear to be truly innocent.


M.
 
Sounds like some one needs a good spanking and then to cry out to God, “ oh my God”, because of overwhelming joy, then a cigarette afterwards.

That's been a bit of a problem for the RCC lately.
 
That's been a bit of a problem for the RCC lately.

Well this was a joke man to woman.
There is evil everywhere and an adult to adult is what I hope to be understood in the context, a comparision to joy.

I try to be funny as I can to ease the tension that's all.
 
Pardon for butting in, but IMO the planet is already in very serious trouble, and I don't see any living beings other than humans as being responsible. Isn't that odd? Creatures without supposed "souls" appear to be truly innocent.


M.

I don't mind.
Elaborate if you like.
 
While I very much enjoy most of your writing, I do disagree with your opinion of Powerball, or rather that participation is a "stupid tax."

Powerball is simply a raffle. If you want the chance of winning a prize, you need to buy a ticket. If you don't want the chance of winning a prize, then you don't buy a ticket.

It is in many ways a tax, but one that people have the choice of paying or not. Millions opt to pay it. Most of the money helps our society to function, just like any mandatory tax. Even greater millions (not sure if this is so) choose not to pay this tax, and that is fair enough.

As I have said before, my number will probably come up before my numbers come up. That is how I choose to live my life.


M.


Dude! (yeah, you just got "duded.")

If your goal is to support a local school, library, hospital or some other social function, why not contribute directly?

Someone I know once calculated the odds of winning the jackpot of some $1M+ lottery. Given it's structure the odds were in the quadrillions to one. That is effectively zero. While it is true that you cannot win (the lottery) if you don't play (the lottery), it is also true that the chance of you winning (the lottery) if you play are effectively the same as not playing (the lottery) - except that they've gotten your ticket purchase "tax."

Actually, I make a habit of not buying mystical trinkets advertised at me by an email "psychic astrologer" scam on a regular basis. Every time I don't buy, I win. I have won over $10,000 over the last 15 or so months already. No ticket purchase required.

ETA: Update: I just won another $90 by not buying a "Lucky Four-Leaf Clover Pendant."

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

You can't lose if you don't play, Not playing is how you...
Win Powerball!!!
 
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articulett
There is only one truth and that's LOVE.

Stop being so angry.
If every one that you speak of is delusional then this world is in for trouble.
Just because you haven't experienced any thing that may prove god or a higher conscienceness doesn't mean you won't and if you do, believe me you'll have to re-think your whole position on your own beliefs.
Seems to me you need to.
If one thing hasn't worked for you try another approach.
Try using the word believer instead of Woo it is nicer.
No ones trying to scare you, woo is what the evil ghosts say to scare you.
There is nothing to be paranoid of.

Sounds like some one needs a good spanking and then to cry out to God, “ oh my God”, because of overwhelming joy, then a cigarette afterwards.

But seriously I was joking, but that overwhelming joy is what a beliver feels when we know that this is not all there is and there must be more.

I'm not angry at all nor paranoid. It's just that you guys all sound, well, like Tom Cruise to me. I'm sure he's nice and successful and is overwhelmed with transcendent joy at his inner knowingness... I just can't make sense of what he's saying and it all sounds completely ******* ... There is no way for me or anyone else to distinguish the "truth" of your "beliefs" from his--in fact it's hard to tell what exactly you guys are saying. I understand the words... but the way you put them together doesn't parse. It's just obvious you all super duper believe in whatever it is you are trying to express... you feel you have "divine knowledge" and I think you have as much "divine knowledge" as Tom Cruise. But you just aren't saying anything. You all happily believe your words of nothingness while I look on grateful that I'm not similarly afflicted... and extra grateful to my fellow skeptics who bear witness to this woo-a-thon we're in.

I posted the Tom Cruise clip... you you guys just tell me where he's wrong and you're right and what you are saying that is different and why we should take you more seriously than him? Because if you don't... I think we'll be taking you as seriously as we take him, mmmkay? To me, you are the same... you are saying the same nothing with the same assurance!

"I am soul" is not proper syntax. It doesn't translate to readily understood meaning. Neither does most of the things you are saying. Neither does most of the stuff Tom Cruise says in his clip. You guys seem to be filling in words and meaning in your head but it's not being expressed to us. If you can't follow Tom Cruise in his clip... then you will understand how you are coming across to skeptics. Aim to be clearer. Instead of the pedantry or advice or poetics... try normal words and sentences with clear points. What exactly is your point? Try to stay focused on your reason for entering a thread. Otherwise, we can't help but react to you the way you and others react to Tom Cruise's "spiel".
 
Dude! (yeah, you just got "duded.")

If your goal is to support a local school, library, hospital or some other social function, why not contribute directly?

Someone I know once calculated the odds of winning the jackpot of some $1M+ lottery. Given it's structure the odds were in the quadrillions to one. That is effectively zero. While it is true that you cannot win (the lottery) if you don't play (the lottery), it is also true that the chance of you winning (the lottery) if you play are effectively the same as not playing (the lottery) - except that they've gotten your ticket purchase "tax."

Actually, I make a habit of not buying mystical trinkets advertised at me by an email "psychic astrologer" scam on a regular basis. Every time I don't buy, I win. I have won over $10,000 over the last 15 or so months already. No ticket purchase required.

ETA: Update: I just won another $90 by not buying a "Lucky Four-Leaf Clover Pendant."

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

You can't lose if you don't play, Not playing is how you...
Win Powerball!!!

I have no "lucky charms." Don't believe in them. But I know I'll never...

Win Powerball!

if I don't buy a ticket.


M.
 
"I am soul" is not proper syntax. It doesn't translate to readily understood meaning. Neither does most of the things you are saying.


You know this with absolute certainty?
The soul is the heart of a person, the thing that doesn't die, the spirit what makes you, you, do you know for certain that we haven’t one?
Lets make it clear so we know what it is we are talking about.

The soul, according to many religious and philosophical traditions, is the self-aware essence unique to a particular living being. In these traditions the soul is thought to incorporate the inner essence of each living being, and to be the true basis for sapience, rather than the brain or any other material or natural part of the biological organism. Some religions and philosophies on the other hand believe in the soul having a material component, and some have even tried to establish the weight of the soul. Souls are usually considered to be immortal and to exist prior to incarnation.
The concept of the soul has strong links with notions of an afterlife, but opinions may vary wildly, even within a given religion, as to what may happen to the soul after the death of the body. It also shares as a PIE root of spirit.
The Greek word is derived from a verb "to cool, to blow" and hence refers to the vital breath, the animating principle in man and animals, as opposed to σῶμα "body". It could refer to a ghost or spirit of the dead in Homer, and to a more philosophical notion of an immortal and immaterial essence left over at death since Pindar. Latin anima figured as a translation of ψυχή since Terence. It occurs juxtaposed to σῶμα e.g. in Matthew 10:28:
— καὶ μὴ φοβηθεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ.
Vulgate: et nolite timere eos qui occidunt corpus animam autem non possunt occidere sed potius eum timete qui potest et animam et corpus perdere in gehennam.
KJV "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
In the Septuagint, ψυχή translates Hebrew נפש nephesh, meaning "life, vital breath", in English variously translated as "soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion"; e.g. in Genesis 1:20:
— וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים יִשְׁרְצ֣וּ הַמַּ֔יִם שֶׁ֖רֶץ נֶ֣פֶשׁ חַיָּ֑ה
LXX καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός ἐξαγαγέτω τὰ ὕδατα ἑρπετὰ ψυχῶν ζωσῶν.
Vulgate Creavitque Deus cete grandia, et omnem animam viventem atque motabilem.
KJV "And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth."
Paul of Tarsus used ψυχή and πνευμα specifically to distinguish between the Jewish notions of נפש nephesh and רוח ruah (also in LXX, e.g. Genesis 1:2 וְר֣וּחַאֱלֹהִ֔ים = πνευμα θεου = spiritus Dei = "the Spirit of God").
[edit] Philosophical views
The Ancient Greeks used the same word for 'alive' as for 'ensouled'. So the earliest surviving western philosophical view might suggest that the terms soul and aliveness, were synonymous - perhaps not that having life, universally presupposed the possession of a soul as in Buddhism, but that full "aliveness" and the soul were conceptually linked.
Francis M. Cornford quotes Pindar in saying that the soul sleeps whilst the limbs are active, but when man is sleeping, the soul is active and reveals in many a dream "an award of joy or sorrow drawing near". [2]

Bolding mine for later use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul
 
Do you know for sure you don't have body Thetans? Engrams?

There is just no evidence that consciousness can exist absent a brain... there is no more reason to believe in souls than little demons running around my house. Humans have believing this crap for eons... but there is no evidence... not for Thor or Satan or Souls or ghosts or Thetans... or incubi or imaginary friends that are real. None of it. None. Zero. Compare that to the evidence that has amassed for evolution since we discovered DNA.

Yay... you guys believe in this stuff... Whippee do... and Tom Cruise believe in his stuff--yee-haw... and astrolgists believe in their thing-- wheee!

But why in the world should any rational person believe in any of it? Why in the world should a skeptic care about any of it--particularly your brand or your version of "it". Why isn't it just another woo.... it sounds like every other woo!

ETA your sacred texts don't mean anything more to me than Dianetics or the book of Mormon or Nostradmus... I don't believe in divine truths... because there is no evidence that such things exist. It's not up to me to prove they don't... it's up for a believer in such to prove they do... and that they have accessed such. Otherwise, you are indistinguishable from woo.
 
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It's not up to me to prove they don't... it's up for a believer in such to prove they do... and that they have accessed such. Otherwise, you are indistinguishable from woo.

Since you are the of the same mind as Paulhoff, I’ll say it here too.

I will present it soon, as soon as I have everything right to say, proof.
It's going to take some writing and my thoughts have to be clear.
It'll be my last presentation.
It will be in a new thread or post OP whatever.
 
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Edge is good at mis-spelling names, it shows his manhood.

Paul

:) :) :)

It shows a lot about his true belief too.
 
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Absolute, verifiable, authoritative, assured, conclusive proof is imminent.

Perhaps I should take a day off from work. This will be a monumental paradigm shift.

Fortunately, I'm relatively healthy, so I'm hopful that I can withstand the stupefaction.
 

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