Hypnotherapy & Breast Enlargement. Please help..

[JonWhite]

Dear all.

Last night on UK TV was a programme called "The Bulls**t Detective". Alongside pieces about supermarket packaging, Feng Shui & a very funny set-up of three supposed "psychics" there was also a report on using hypnotherapy to effect genuine, permanent breast enlargement. I had posted a heads-up for the programme in a hypnotherapy forum and now unsurprisingly find myself embroiled in a "debate" with a hypnotherapist who practices just such (I believe) nonsense.

He pointed me to his website http://www.exuberancehypno.co.uk/breast-enlargement.htm stating that I would find proof there. Unless I'm missing something, all I'm seeing is a load of anecdotal stuff and references to three studies:

American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis - April 1977 – Vol 19, No 4. Richard Willard, MD

American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis - April 1977 – Vol 19, No 4. Alan Staib & D.R. Logan

The Journal of Sex Research – Nov 1974 – Vol 10. No 4. James E Williams.

No links to these studies are provided, I'm not getting far hunting for them, and to be honest am far from the most empirically qualified to evaluate them if and when I do find them.

It is because I know that some of the people on the hypnotherapy forum sit uncomfortably on the fence between woo and common sense that I would like to be in a position to clearly debunk such nonsense. I would add that I would like to limit this war against woo to hypno breast enlargement only rather than hypnotherapy more generally, so as to be as inclusive of as many fence sitters as possible.

Any help that could be offered in this would be much appreciated.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think this thread needs pictures.

 

[kellyb]

All of those references are too old and obscure to be available to the public now, so there's no way to know exactly what they actually say. So first of all, I'd ask for something a little more recent.
If the guy you're talking to actually has those studies, I'd ask him what kind of diet and exercise program the participants were also involved in, and how that might have influenced the results.
Appealing to common sense, if the results are real, the participants were probably also doing pectoral exercises, so the effect of hypnotherapy in this case would be comparable to expensive diet pills that "Work great when combined with a healthy diet and exercise!".

 

[ChristineR]

Eating more is a reliable means of breast enlargement. Any sort of behavior modification which encourages someone to eat more would work.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I once met a hypnotherapist who could make willies bigger.
At least it worked for me- and I didn't even know she was a hypnotherapist until she put her clothes on.

 

[kellyb]

Eating more is a reliable means of breast enlargement. Any sort of behavior modification which encourages someone to eat more would work.

A reference I found to the first study listed claimed they lost weight and gained an inch or so of breast size at the same time, though.

 

[JonWhite]

I once met a hypnotherapist who could make willies bigger.
At least it worked for me- and I didn't even know she was a hypnotherapist until she put her clothes on.

Dagnammit. I've already told him:

"After all, if will-power, expectation and suggestion alone really were able to effect such genuine physical changes, I have a certain appendage that by now would achieve a length of at least 12 inches!"

 

[JonWhite]

A reference I found to the first study listed claimed they lost weight and gained an inch or so of breast size at the same time, though.

That's part of the problem I'm having. I would like to simply pose that any actual physical changes are more likely to be a result of diet or exercise conducted at the same time as the hypnotherapy.

Unfortunately I'm sure I'd have that thrown back at me.

Thirty year old studies.... grrrr.

 

[ChristineR]

Copies of that volume of American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis are a five minute walk from where I sit now.

I couldn't find copies of The Journal of Sex Research that old.

If nothing better turns up I can go get them this weekend and photocopy them. I can even scan them and put them online. That's a slightly longer walk though.

 

[JonWhite]

Copies of that volume of American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis are a five minute walk from where I sit now.

I couldn't find copies of The Journal of Sex Research that old.

If nothing better turns up I can go get them this weekend and photocopy them. I can even scan them and put them online. That's a slightly longer walk though.

Any info would be much appreciated, thank you.

I wouldn't make too much effort though. Posts on the hypnotherapy forum go through a moderator and my response hasn't yet gone up. I've been censored there before when debunking Remote Viewing. Certain people seem to take everything as a personal attack.

The current debate is as follows:


"Last night's programme on BBC3 set out to disprove the fact that
hypnotherapy could help increase breast size. It didn't do it very
well. Despite quoting the recent article in the Daily Mail which
detailed a hypnotherapist, Lesley Graves, and her clients who
reported an increase in breast size from an A or AA cup to a size C
cup using her 25 session technique, the "team" on BBC3 tried to show
how creating an one inch increase after 10 minutes of suggestions is
impossible. Of course it is.

We were shown images of various websites promoting breast enlargement
using hypnosis, the implication being that they were all rip-off
sites, but we were not shown any sites that contained the references
from Medical Doctors confirming that breast augmentation using
hypnosis is a viable alternative to intrusive procedures. For those
that may be interested, this page on my site has the details, as it
is a programme that I offer my clients
www.exuberancehypno.co.uk/breast-enlargement.htm The Bulls**t
Detective didn't think that the proof of it's effectiveness was worth
mentioning, neither was asking the clients of Lesley Graves to show
proof of their increase via photos, family members or their GP
offering confirmation.

The "team" then showed us three victims, sorry volunteers, who
presumably had been told that they were going to appear on a BBC
programme to prove that breast increase was possible using hypnosis.
This demonstration amounted to little more than an impromptu,
unprofessional stage hypnosis show. The three volunteers no doubt
totally believed that it was possible, as appearing on a BBC show to
confirm its effectiveness carries a lot of clout and belief in itself.

We then saw a "hypnotist", who was in fact a stooge, give suggestions
that the volunteers breasts were growing in size and that a track
playing in the background contained subliminal suggestions of
increased bust size. After the short "session", the three ladies were
asked to measure their busts and compare it with the measurements
that were taken before the "session". All three reported an increase,
but in fact were simply allowing a looser tape. Why? Probably because
they didn't want to look like fools and say that this elaborate BBC
test had not worked.

Last night's programme simply proved that people could believe that
they had increased their bust size, when in fact they hadn't. In the
same way that in any stage hypnosis show, which again uses pressure
and expectation, people believe they have won the lottery but they
haven't, people believe that they are a dog and bark like one but of
course they are not. People can believe that they are taller but of
course they are not.

Breast enlargement/augmentation with hypnotherapy is proven, and it
can be proven by the actual results i.e. the measurements which can
easily be confirmed by a Doctor or Nurse but The Bulls**t Detective
had no interest in this.

At the end of the segment, the stooge "hypnotist" announced that
hypnosis is a sham; it is only the power of suggestion. Well of
course it is suggestion! All I do is talk, all any hypnotherapist
does is talk, we give positive beneficial suggestions to our clients.
If the power of suggestion helps someone who is unhappy feel happy,
that's wonderful.

Last night's episode was ill-researched and ultimately made more of a
fool of the BBC than its supposed target."


To which I've replied:


Naturally take a somewhat different view and approach to last nights programme than Dave's.

Firstly, it was never going to be a balanced, scientific investigation. The title alone was a very large clue as to what to expect. Overall, I don't consider that hypnotherapy generally came out particularly badly. Other than a line at the beginning of the piece that hypnosis is used for many things "from giving up smoking to out there things like past lives" it concentrated pretty exclusively on the breast enlargement issue. Even as a practitioner, to call past lives "out there" does not seem unreasonable in the real world.

Personal bias for sure, but for me alarm bells immediately start ringing regarding any article and claims promoted in the Daily Mail. It's hardly the last bastion of honest, objective, considered reporting and I would hold most of its presented views on hypno breast enlargement or just about anything else to be right down there alongside the latest New Labour press release until proven otherwise.

However in an honest journey for just such proof, I've now looked at Dave's website for the evidence I would apparently find there. Ignoring the obvious anecdotal stuff, reference to three studies conducted by "Medical Doctors" (so it must be true!) supposedly proving such claims are given - two from hypnosis journals and one from a sex research (?) journal. Although important sounding, Medical Doctors are not scientists and unless studies are conducted satisying both strict empirical and non-empirical requirements then such professionals are just as likely to fall prey to issues of (i.e.) bias as the rest of us. Sadly, no links to the actual reports themselves are provided so any claims made regarding these sources remain nothing more than anecdotal also. Being currently perfectly happy about my breast size I have no "need" to believe the anecdotal claims given at face value. So (off the top of my head) various information along the following lines should be ascertained before in any way accepting said studies and claims made as valid:

How robust were the studies?
What protocols/sample sizes/controls were employed?
Who were the scientists who carried them out, how qualified are they?
What potential conflicting agenda's may be present?
What actual physical changes within the breasts were recorded?
What physical mechanism caused said change?
How statistically significant were the results?
What mitigating factors should the results be considered against?
What independent peer review studies were conducted to verify the original findings?

Indeed, one of the website claims under the "American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis" study is that "These subjects reported that they were very pleased with the fullness and firmness of their breasts at the end of the study". "These subjects reported..."??? That's no better science than in last nights programme! Just because you want to believe doesn't make it so. If they're happier with their breasts then great, but it ain't proof of anything.

I completely agree that all last night's programme simply showed was that people could believe that they had increased their bust size, when in fact they hadn't. Just as the earlier show had shown how easily people would believe in and actually feel the healing vibrational energy of crystals even when Worthers Originals were used. It's all about expectation/ belief/etc and the confidence in the suggestions given. It is precisely because one can be honest in hypnotherapy regarding changes being made by belief, suggestion, etc - without spouting lies and mystical nonsense such as lumps of rock giving off vibrational energy or cosmic healing powers channelled through a 3,500 year old Native American conduit - that I have faith in hypnotherapy, and no problems with it as a practice.

Nonetheless, there are limits as to what hypnotherapy can achieve. Until I am presented with actual valid empirical evidence, I will continue to view a stage hypnotist making a victim believe/pretend her breasts are bigger as more honest than a hypnotherapist making the extra-ordinary claim as to be able to genuinely make such changes.

After all, if will-power, expectation and suggestion alone really were able to effect such genuine physical changes, I have a certain appendage that by now would achieve a length of at least 12 inches! (JOKE!)


Is this over the top?

 

[Kariboo]

Seems like a good letter to me, just my $0.02

I would ask him for a copy of the complete studies and not just the excerpts he gives, if the studies are legit he wouldn't have a problem with that

I would ask if there are any studies done in the past 30 years and if not why not and if yes, why not put them on his website.

This guy says that "Breast enlargement/augmentation with hypnotherapy is proven, and it can be proven by the actual results i.e. the measurements which can easily be confirmed by a Doctor or Nurse", great, so lets see the numbers

2). American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis - April 1977 – Vol 19, No 4. Alan Staib & D.R. Logan.“With future development, this procedure could become a desirable alternative to surgical methods of breast augmentation.”

3). The Journal of Sex Research – Nov 1974 – Vol 10. No 4. James E Williams.
Further investigation shows this to be a satisfactory alternative to surgical breast augmentation.”

So how come that 30 years later it is still not part of daily practice then?

Also I noticed that there is no testimonial about breast enlargement on his site, you'd expect there to be at least a couple if this would work

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I once met a hypnotherapist who could make willies bigger.
At least it worked for me- and I didn't even know she was a hypnotherapist until she put her clothes on.

Conversely, I find a pair of enlarged breasts quite hyponotic.

Was this the same person?

 

[ysabella]

There was a Penn & Teller: Bulls Hit! episode called "Sex, Sex, Sex" that touched on hypnosis for breast enlargement. It featured a hypnotherapist based in the Sacramento, CA area whose program involved sessions every week for about eight weeks. They interviewed three women undergoing the plan. Two said it didn't work, the other turned out to be a personal friend of the hypnotherapist.

Here we go: http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/prevepisodes.do?episodeid=s1/sss

The hypnotherapist was Kyrah Malan.

 

[JonWhite]

There was a Penn & Teller: Bulls Hit! episode called "Sex, Sex, Sex" that touched on hypnosis for breast enlargement. It featured a hypnotherapist based in the Sacramento, CA area whose program involved sessions every week for about eight weeks. They interviewed three women undergoing the plan. Two said it didn't work, the other turned out to be a personal friend of the hypnotherapist.

Here we go: http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/prevepisodes.do?episodeid=s1/sss

The hypnotherapist was Kyrah Malan.

Dagnammit. The Showtime link won't work for anyone outside the US. Thanks anyway.

 

[joobz]

Hypnotoad encourages larger...um...thingys

 

[casebro]

Hypnotherapy probably works.

Something like it worked for my ex-wife. Several times, everyday, for years, she would rub tissue paper between them. Eventually they grew to phenomenal size.

Too bad it wasn't her breasts she applied the tissure between, it was her buns...

 

[JonWhite]

Ok, to continue the soap opera given in post # 10 to needlessly up my post count. For anyone interested or who finds themselves with too much time on their hands (& many thanks to those of you I've plagiarised), I received the following reply:

I did not see the BBC3 programme, and I have not had clients wanting breast enlargement. However, I notice that the articles cited on Dave’s website are all cited also in Hammond, which I would consider a responsible source. It might be helpful to quote the reference in full:
“Finally, there are several well-done investigative reports (Stalb & Logan, 1977; Willard, 1977; Williams, 1973) documenting that hypnosis may be used to induce breast growth. We do not yet know whether this phenomenon is mediated through vascular flow changes, endocrine effects, or a combination of the two, but it illustrates the power of mind-body interaction.”

The American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis (where two of the studies were published) is a serious learned journal, and I am sure that the articles would have been peer reviewed before publication, so I think we should treat them with respect. It is interesting that they are now 30 years old. If no new studies have been published, is it because the old ones are considered definitive and no further work is needed? Or is it because current practitioners have not been able to achieve similar outcomes?

Jon makes some good points about the desirability of evidence, but much of what we do is supported by our own experience but not necessarily by scientific reports, which is why we have a way to go before we put Big Pharma out of business. It would be interesting to hear from Dave about any of his own cases, and also whether he has managed to get his clients’ GPs involved to provide some independent verification. Then we might be on our way to publishing more up to date research.

 

[JonWhite]

To which my response was:

Perhaps, perhaps not...

Just because two of the reports are cited in Hammonds as "well researched" does not necessarily make it so. Recommendation by a hypnotist of a hypnotic report in a hypnotic script book is potentially a far from objectively balanced source, no matter how much you like the book. The quote you give - oddly the only mention of this subject in that entire tome - even states a clear lack of knowledge or understanding regarding the nature and mechanism by which these proposed changes take place. i.e. the studies in that regard are at the very least far from complete. Any cited growth caused by vascular flow would not in itself be permanent and hormonal changes due to stimulation of the endocrine system in this way easily measured. As you yourself state, why have there been no follow up studies? If these had been as definitive as claimed then why hasn't using hypnotherapy for permanent physical modification either entered into the mainstream medical/cosmetic arena or at the very least been considered sufficiently valid so as to warrant at least some sort of further investigation over the 30 odd years since? For all we currently know, the effect of hypnotherapy in these cases could be simply comparable to expensive diet pills that "Work great when combined with a healthy diet and exercise!". I wonder...

[SIZE=+0]Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and until that is provided and validated by independent peer review and replication it is surely unethical for such claims to be promoted as truth. This is especially true for claims such as this, considering the ethical implications of otherwise potentially cruelly exploiting those with serious body image issues if not completely sound. I would posit that none has yet been provided, either here or elsewhere that I can yet find. Neither yourself or anyone else is seemingly currently able to provide any such empirical proof. In all good conscience one should therefore err on the side of caution and such claims should not be promoted and sessions sold. I do not consider "I am sure..." as any such sufficient grounds to believe otherwise. [/SIZE]

Incidentally, back in good ol' non-scientific US TV land, there was a Penn & Teller: BullSh*t! episode called "Sex, Sex, Sex" that touched on hypnosis for breast enlargement. Anecdotal "evidence" every bit as valid (and almost certainly better researched) as any on Dave's site. It featured a hypnotherapist (Kyrah Malan) based in the Sacramento, CA area whose program involved very lucrative sessions every week for about eight weeks. They interviewed three women undergoing the plan. Two said it didn't work, the other turned out to be a personal friend of the hypnotherapist! So "ill-researched" productions have now "made fools" of two major TV corporations? Or not.

Hypnotherapy put "Big Pharma out of business"? Without doubt there are many large areas where changes and improvements should be made and the political and financial structures improved, but out of business??? I hope that I am reading this incorrectly. You surely don't expect that it will be hypnotherapy or even the greatest degree of mind/body influence theoretically possible that will ever come up with a cure for (i.e.) Aids???

 

[JonWhite]

..and for my efforts received:

This is a peer support web group and I feel that
passing judgements on the services provided by other
practitioners is not in the spirit of the AICH.

 

[JonWhite]

My latest response to this has been:

It was on this peer support web group that claims were made as to the validity of using hypnotherapy for breast enlargement.

It was stated that, "we were not shown any sites that contained the references from Medical Doctors confirming that breast augmentation using hypnosis is a viable alternative to intrusive procedures. For those that may be interested, this page on my site has the details, as it is a programme that I offer my clients"

Well, I have looked at that site and found no evidence whatsoever that using hypnosis is a "viable alternative". Instead finding anecdotes (anecdotes are NOT evidence) and the titles of three thirty odd year old studies, but absolutely no information on the nature of these studies except further anecdotes. Apparently a few photo's and family testimonials courtesy of Lesley Graves' clients would also constitute evidence - it wouldn't.

Before accepting an extraordinary claim such as this I require evidence according to established methodology.

For example. I make the extraordinary claim that I can use hypnotherapy for permanent penis enlargement and offer the following as evidence upon my website:

Whether you refer to it as penis enhancement, penis augmentation or penis enlargement, would you like to achieve your ideal penis size without the use of drugs or surgery in a safe and natural way? Research has proven that the average gain is just over 2 inches, although many men have had 4 inch increases, some even more, and that the results are maintained!
Many men who decide to increase their penis size do it to improve their self esteem. Vacuum pumps achieve this in a superficial way, but is complete happiness and self acceptance gained on a spiritual level? No, the cause of the low self esteem is still there.
One of the many benefits of using hypnotherapy and hypnosis to increase your penis size is the ability to also boost your self esteem and confidence at every emotional level so that not only could you have a bigger, firmer, reshaped penis, but you can feel truly fabulous. With this method, you could feel wonderful about yourself and have a bigger, firmer, reshaped penis! You get the best of both worlds!
Surgery could leave you with scars and possible complications such as implant hardening or removal, erectile problems, implant leakage, nerve damage, glans numbness and in a few years time you could end up with testicle "rocks in socks”. Hypnotherapy and hypnosis is safe, natural, drug free and has been proven to balance and firm the penis and scrotum. One of the proven side effects is that your brain size could get bigger! How’s that for a side effect!

Research on Penis Enlargement using hypnotherapy & hypnosis:
Albanian Journal of Clinical Hypnosis - April 1977 – Vol 19, No 4. Richard Whoever, MD.

“Physiobiological changes can be obtained by hypnotic suggestion that are quite impossible to obtain during the waking state.” Dr. Willard’s approach achieved an average increase of 1.44 inches, with all 22 of the volunteers achieving an increase in penis circumference. 42% lost more than 4 pounds in weight and still had an increase in penis size. Many of the subjects had sired children and complained of erection problems. These subjects expressed a desire to reclaim the fullness and contour of their erection which they had before children. These subjects reported that they were very pleased with the fullness and firmness of their penis at the end of the study. All of the subjects that began the study with one testicle smaller than the other found them to be of equal size at the end of the 12 weeks.

If your aim is to increase the size, shape, balance, fullness and firmness of your penis and testicles, don’t you owe it to yourself to strongly consider this technique?"

etc. Should you believe this constitutes evidence and accept it at face value as stated? Of course not.

This is not a personal attack. I give Dave the benefit of the doubt in that he believes his claims. Are these studies valid? I currently haven't got a clue but do have many questions that need answering before ever taking them at face value. Rather this is a call for critical thinking and establishing that a robust, corroborative, independant, scientific study has been performed before ever such claims are made.

We are personally entitled to believe in whatever we like. But in the authoritative, therapeutic role we are under ethical constraints to neither promote our personal beliefs or potentially unsound practices.