"Humiliating" the Arabs? And if so... so what?

Skeptic

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Every time some despot falls in the middle east--an all-too-infrequent occurence, unfortunately--we hear from the left that this is wrong, because it "humiliates the Arabs" (or the Muslims), with their presumably ultra-sensitive national pride. (Of course, the same sort of pride--in a much milder form--is considered intolerably "racist xenophobia" when displayed by Americans, but I digress.) As proof, we get video clips of the latest mob-for-hire shouting "Death to America!" out of their own free will with no coersion whatsoever--in Teheran or Islamabad or Cairo or Tripoli, those bastions of free expression of public opinion.

Well, Saddam fell. The supposedly "humiliated" Iraqis were SO humiliated this time, they danced in the streets for joy, openly claiming this is the happiest day of their lives. And on the same day the pride of the Arab world, the great and brave Hussein, was captured by evil imperialist forces, too!

What's wrong with this picture?

What's wrong with it is that the USA is NOT "humiliating the Arabs". It is merely humiliating the despots who rule the Arab world and the terrorists who would like all of the world to be (their kind of) Muslim. Most Arabs--and most Muslims--fervently wish for their "dear leaders" to be humiliated in this way, and the sooner, the better. If I were living in Libya, I'd be praying to Allah every day that the Americans will decide to humiliate Quaddafi next--and most of them no doubt are doing just that, if they can get a glimpse of the truth from their state-controlled press.

(By the way, one unintentional side effect of state-controlled press is that the public learns to read between the lines. "GREAT DEFENSIVE VICTORY" = retreat and/or defeat, "THE MOTHER OF ALL WARS HAS STARTED" = Saddam failed to stop American invasion, "ARAB PRIDE WILL AVENGE THIS IMPERIALIST AGRESSION" = Saddam finally captured, etc. Those Libyans who learned this art are probably quite happy right now. But I digress...)

In addition, even if it WERE true that "humiliating the Arabs" was a result of toppling Saddam, just like Quaddafi and Hamas fervently claim, SO WHAT?

When you fight a war, you have three options. 1). To lose; 2). To eliminate the enemy to the last man; 3). To defeat the enemy and NOT take revenge upon him, leaving him "humiliated" at having lost a war.

LOSING A WAR MEANS BEING HUMILIATED. DUH! But this is precisely what the USA did to Germany and Japan in WWII, to England in the Revolutionary war, to the south in the civil war, and to the USSR in the end of the cold war, etc., etc. A humiliated enemy come part and parcel with winning war. When the left says "don't humiliate the Arabs", what it really means is "don't you dare win the war, your enemy might not like it!".

But surely, "humiliating" the enemy--as opposed to losing the war or eradicting the enemy--is the least of the three evils, and it usually QUICKLY PASSES, especially since the US was always willing to show good will to a defeated enemy. When your "humiliating" victor comes back the next day and says, "OK, we won the war, now here's this money to reconstruct the damage you suffered and to build a democracy", it's hard to keep a grudge for long. Do we see many German or Japanese suicide bombers angry about their country's humiliation in WWII (and they were FAR more humiliated than the Iraqis ever were)? Where are the Russian jihadist out to avenge the fall of the Berlin wall?

So, first of all, I think that the Arabs, far from being "humiliated", are--unlike their despotic governments--hoping and praying for a lot more "humiliation" of this sort, and the sooner the better. In addition, even if they ARE humiliated, this is by far the least of a few possible evils, and certainly no reason for the USA to stop.
 
Ummm who said that Saddams caprture humilated the arabs? The magic super-liberal robot that lives in your basement?
 
He need to be captured. Once the war had started we had to either capture or kill him. Wether this humileates the Arab world does not matter by this stage we had no choice.
 
Ok if you want to say that seeing Saddam all scruffy and being examined is humiliating, ill agree with that. (I believe the footage was chosen because it humilated Saddam and it destroys his mystique)

But Skept talks about how we "here from the left". This thread implies that there are left thinking americans who feel we shouldnt captur Saddam because it'll hurt some arbs feelings.

Can you find me somone whos said that? Other than the magic uberleftist outragous quote generating robot. :p
 
Tmy said:
Ummm who said that Saddams caprture humilated the arabs? The magic super-liberal robot that lives in your basement?

One need not search long.

I felt extremely humiliated," said Egyptian writer Sayyid Nassar, who interviewed Saddam three weeks before the US-led invasion of Iraq on 20 March. "I felt it was not only a humiliation of Arabs but of all humanity."
 
Luke T. said:
Well, aside from the link I just posted, see here and here.

Thanks. I disagree with Capel and Cleo. I thought the footage of Saddam was perfect to show in every way, as it's needed to convince the iraques that he has in fact been caught. I just find it strange that Skeptic's long rant, against the left, was provoked by a few posts. I don't even think Cleo is a leftist. Oh, well.
 
More from AC's link:

The Iraqi political analyst Ali al-Dabbagh, who lives in the United Arab Emirates, said Arabs were shocked and humiliated because of the "collapse of a myth" which forced "Arabs to face their sad reality and impotence.

"Many were those who were shocked that this 'hero', whom the media covered with a halo and glorious titles like the 'valorous', did not resist" US forces coming to arrest him, Dabbagh said.

"Suddenly, Arabs saw the true face of Saddam: a dwarf who did not have the courage to resist or even commit suicide as he had for so long claimed he would do," Dabbagh said.

How true....
 
aerocontrols said:

A quote from an Egyptian writer??? Does he count as "the left". Whats next, some quotes from Bath Party members? How about some suicide bombers? Maybe Castro wants to weigh in. Arent they all card carrying Democrats!!
 
The "humiliation" that the Arabs are complaining about is just more of the usual scapgoating.

Rather than hold their own governments/regimes accountable they find it safer to blame the modern world for all their troubles.




Arabs express mixed emotions


Here's just ONE opinion & this by a member of Jordan's parliament.

"Of course it's bad news. To us, Saddam was a symbol of defiance to the US plans in the region. And we support any person who stands in the face of the American dominance," said Azzam Hinaidi, an Islamist member of Jordan's parliament."
 
Palistinian Editor on CNN yesterday said that the pictures of US treatment of Saddam were humiliating to Arabs and would, in the end, cause great resentment against the US.

It is an interesting spin. Arabs who want the pretext, will of course, be humiliated. They didn't need US treatment of Saddam for that, in any event.

In the end, it is Iraqis that matter. If (and it is a big if) Saddam's capture and facing a trial liberates the country...i.e. makes it possible for people to speak their minds, become more comfortable with participating in post-Saddam Iraq, and lessens fear ... than it is a good thing.

BTW, not that any arab nationalist who wants to feel humiliated would care, I actually thought that the US treatment of Saddam was appropriate and on the humaine side. They gave him a medical check...they didn't frog march him naked in front of cameras, they didn't call out his name in a mass assembly and have him taken out and summarilly shot. They didn't have him tortured or have the soles of his feet beaten. They didn't rape his daughters in front of him. THey didn't amputate any of his limbs. They didn't attach batteries to his private parts and turn on the juice. They didn't gas him. They didn cut him with knives. THey didn't turn him over to his son's weilding baseball bats...and on and on.

They gave him a physical, a shave and checked his DNA. Pretty bad and darn humiliating.

The difficulty, and the US will never be the right ones to make this argument, btw, is that the only humiliation that Arabs should feel about Saddam is the humiliation that he has brought on himself and them...he wasted the resources, both human and natural, of the Iraqi nation for years. He robbed them, he murdered them, he got them into pointless wars that killed millions of them (and Iranians). Arabs need to use this opportunity to "try" Saddam, and to establish a rule of law that holds leaders in their nations responsible.

Indeed, the trial of Saddam should make Saudis and Syrian Baathist think a little harder about the world they are building. The masses turn to fundumentalist Islam, because leaders like Saddam are theives and murderers and put themselves and families above the law and justice. Some in the Arab masses have grabbed on to this sort of fundumentalist Islam in an effort to find Justice.

Anyway, in the end, Saddam is his own humiliation. Redemption for Arab honor lies in trying him and convicting him for his perversion of their dignity and his usurpation of their honor.

I don't expect it to happen, but it could....
 
The BBC suggested that the Americans were treating him as a POW. As such the pictures showing him having his saliva swabbed was an example of the behaviour they objected to when the Iraqis displayed their POWs.

I think the point being made was to win hearts and minds of the rebels you don’t sink to the level of the Saddam Regime rather you show yourselves to be above it.

I dare say that the American higher command felt that by humiliating Saddam the people currently ambushing them and the civilians in Iraq would feel more inclined to give themselves up.
 
Lothian said:
The BBC suggested that the Americans were treating him as a POW. As such the pictures showing him having his saliva swabbed was an example of the behaviour they objected to when the Iraqis displayed their POWs.

I think the point being made was to win hearts and minds of the rebels you don’t sink to the level of the Saddam Regime rather you show yourselves to be above it.

I dare say that the American higher command felt that by humiliating Saddam the people currently ambushing them and the civilians in Iraq would feel more inclined to give themselves up.

The US command had a serious problem: people needed to see and believe that it was Saddam. Remember the questions raised at the death of his sons? This is a man who had people surgically altered to act as doubles for him, etc.

So long as he was free, there were people who would continue to live in fear of his return. The pictures shown were not extensive. They did prove that he was captured. As was noted above, those who want to feel humiliated here, will find pretext in anything. IF they didn't show pictures, people would accuse the US of lying. The US was/is going to get it either way. The bottom line is that it is a small thing.
 
Tmy said:


A quote from an Egyptian writer??? Does he count as "the left". Whats next, some quotes from Bath Party members? How about some suicide bombers? Maybe Castro wants to weigh in. Arent they all card carrying Democrats!!

My reply was a response to your question. If you wanted examples from the Left, you should have been more clear.
 
An excellent post, headscratcher, and one that opens the door for me to make an observation I have long held.


headscratcher4 said:

Indeed, the trial of Saddam should make Saudis and Syrian Baathist think a little harder about the world they are building. The masses turn to fundumentalist Islam, because leaders like Saddam are theives and murderers and put themselves and families above the law and justice. Some in the Arab masses have grabbed on to this sort of fundumentalist Islam in an effort to find Justice.


I think Saddam Hussein and Yassir Arafat (what the heck, might as well throw Arafat in, because I think the same thing applies) believe in God and Islam about as much as James Randi does. I have said the same thing about John Edward and Sylvia Browne re God and Randi.

These are people who know how to exploit the beliefs of others. In Hussein's and Arafat's cases, the beliefs of extremists.

But whether it is JE or SB or SH or YA, it all boils down to personal gain and not religious conviction.

Just as there were Iraqis who wanted to see Hussein go, you won't have too much trouble finding Palistinians who wish Arafat never existed. But they don't make the media because they don't blow things up.

I will say for the third time: the only people who felt humiliated by Hussein's lame surrender are those who should. The rest are as amused as you and I.

Imagine for a minute if John Edward was exposed as an undeniable fraud. Who would be humiliated? Not you and me. Only those who should be.
 
headscratcher4 said:


The US command had a serious problem: people needed to see and believe that it was Saddam. Remember the questions raised at the death of his sons? This is a man who had people surgically altered to act as doubles for him, etc.

So long as he was free, there were people who would continue to live in fear of his return. The pictures shown were not extensive. They did prove that he was captured. As was noted above, those who want to feel humiliated here, will find pretext in anything. IF they didn't show pictures, people would accuse the US of lying. The US was/is going to get it either way. The bottom line is that it is a small thing.
I agree he had to be shown. Why could they not have just shown a picture of him. Why did they show pictures of him having a swab taken? While I don’t agree such a picture humiliates the Arab race, it humiliates Saddam and does nothing to convince any of the terrorists that they will be fairly treated by the US forces
 

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