Human Rights in China

MRC_Hans said:
While Westeners can agree to denounce the persecution of Falun Gong, few of us actually feel any identification with them.
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They're oppressed which gives me empathy with them.

They're such a harmless bunch of tiny little guys - even if their founder was nuts, it seems pretty heartless to continue the persecution. I like your thinking.

Quick aside - They just do not understand this huge big-nose who turns up and joins their protest. They stand respectfully, heads bowed, holding their placards while the big-nose roars up and down the street, shouting at people entering and exiting the embassy, pushing tracts into their hands. (few decline) The Chinese Embassy staff have taken more than a passing interest, usually doubling the gate guard from 2 to 4 immediately I turn up. Great sport!
 
The Painter said:
I thought you could get in trouble for talking like this on the internet in China? I always thought the Chinese government was very restrictive regarding internet use.

I’ve wondered about information dissemination in China. For example; does the majority of the general population even know we’ve been on the Moon? I also wonder about information getting out of China. I seem to recall a story were thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people died in an earthquake and the outside world didn’t find out about it until 5 or 10 years later.
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I can, from personal experience, vouch for the fact that this is totally untrue.

I work for a company that has a research facility in Shanghai and have visited twice. We had internet access (the same that was available to the local workers) and was able to do the same browsing that I normally do from here in the U.S. including this site. The only time I hit a censorship wall when when I attempted to follow a link to a story about Falun Gong. Links about Tibet were not stopped, interestingly.

I think most Americans have no concept of what today's China is like. If you think the people (at least the middle-class educated city dwellers) are downtrodden and miserable and want to "escape" to a free country, you are SO wrong. Wolfman knows what he is talking about.

Thank you Wolfman for bringing up a great topic!

IXP
 
Wolfman: I am reading this during my lunch time and only have time to read the OP and skim a few posts in the rest of the thread (apologies to all, I'm sure you've all made good points. I will read more later.)

I totally agree with you! Many Americans and other westerners are self-appointed moral busybodies! They are too ignorant and they shoot from the hip! Shooting from the hip often means shooting the wrong person. Issues in other countries are often much too complicated for easy and self-serving moral judgments. Judge not, lest ye be judged! Chill out and wait for nature to take its course, I say. I think the best way to advance freedom in China is to shut up about it and just let people like yourself engage China and not put them on the defensive by casting aspersions. You can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.
 
Puppycow said:
Judge not, lest ye be judged! Chill out and wait for nature to take its course, I say.
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Well, I'm quite happy for our human rights to be judged anytime.

We'll just chill out and wait until they've killed all the Falun Gong, then there's no worries, eh?
 
The Atheist said:
Quick aside - They just do not understand this huge big-nose who turns up and joins their protest. They stand respectfully, heads bowed, holding their placards while the big-nose roars up and down the street, shouting at people entering and exiting the embassy, pushing tracts into their hands. (few decline) The Chinese Embassy staff have taken more than a passing interest, usually doubling the gate guard from 2 to 4 immediately I turn up. Great sport!
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When you say "big-nose" does that mean Jew?
 
The Atheist said:
Well, I'm quite happy for our human rights to be judged anytime.

We'll just chill out and wait until they've killed all the Falun Gong, then there's no worries, eh?
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Outside pressure is counterproductive. Eventually they will evolve. The key is for the economy to develop. Rich nations have more advanced human rights policies because they can afford to. Human rights will advance pretty much at the same rate as economic expansion. On the other end of the spectrum you have countries like North Korea and Sudan, both terrible abusers of human rights, and both dirt poor. The suppression of Falun Gong seems rather mild in comparison.

I am not apoligizing for the Chinese Government, BTW. I am saying, let them solve their own problems. Their own solutions will be better than any solution imposed from outside.
 
Puppycow said:
I am not apoligizing for the Chinese Government, BTW. I am saying, let them solve their own problems. Their own solutions will be better than any solution imposed from outside.
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Inside being Tibet?

Inside being Taiwan?

I dont think so
 
The Atheist said:
They're oppressed which gives me empathy with them.

They're such a harmless bunch of tiny little guys - even if their founder was nuts, it seems pretty heartless to continue the persecution. *snip*
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Yeah that's what we mostly feel: Hey, don't slap those harmess -yeech- weirdos around! Look at us, we can tolerate all kinds of -yeech- weirdos.

Hans
 
Puppycow said:
On the other end of the spectrum you have countries like North Korea and Sudan, both terrible abusers of human rights, and both dirt poor. The suppression of Falun Gong seems rather mild in comparison.
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####ING A!!!

Let's go kill some ___________s ourselves. #### human rights! Other countries are much worse! Who gives a crap?

Great attitude.

Puppycow said:
I am not apoligizing for the Chinese Government, BTW. I am saying, let them solve their own problems. Their own solutions will be better than any solution imposed from outside.
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Hey, I've had me my "defend China with totally flawed logic" moment, now I'm gonna set me a strawman afire!

Who suggested imposing outside solutions?

Sorry mate, you're an idiot. Start again.
 
MRC_Hans said:
Yeah that's what we mostly feel: Hey, don't slap those harmess -yeech- weirdos around! Look at us, we can tolerate all kinds of -yeech- weirdos.

Hans
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Where do the weirdos come into it? Or is it "yeech weirdos"? Is there a difference?
 
Puppycow said:
You are saying that it would be helpful for outsiders to try and impose a solution for these issues? Who, exactly? The Anglo-Saxons? With a straight face?
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I think you both have a point. It is the involved people who have to solve the problems, but it won't hurt any that especially the strong part knows that they'll have to look the rest of the world in the eye afterwards.

Hans
 
The Atheist said:
Where do the weirdos come into it? Or is it "yeech weirdos"? Is there a difference?
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I think you will defend people with more dedication if you find them sympatic. Thus, my point is that there could be a certain usefulness for the Chinese government to have a high-profile case where the victimized part is not particularly sympatic, to take away the spotlight from other cases.



Hans
 
Puppycow said:
Human rights will advance pretty much at the same rate as economic expansion. On the other end of the spectrum you have countries like North Korea and Sudan, both terrible abusers of human rights, and both dirt poor.
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Did SK have a burst of economic development that led led it to embrace way more freedom than NK? I think it's rather clear that it's the other way around. Look at the Middle East, with all that oil wealth. Are they socially advanced?
 
Puppycow said:
Strawman

Pot, meet kettle.
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Yeah.

:bigclap

Very good. See, you can recognise a strawman after all.

Don't use them yourself, unless you want to have it pointed out again that you're talking crap. Good to see that you focused on the important part - Try again! Biiig surprise. You have no skill, no style and no argument.

:pythonfoot:
 
MRC_Hans said:
I think you will defend people with more dedication if you find them sympatic. Thus, my point is that there could be a certain usefulness for the Chinese government to have a high-profile case where the victimized part is not particularly sympatic, to take away the spotlight from other cases.

Hans
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Ok. Not sure I agree this applies to Falun Gong. The guy who kicked it off was nuts, but the practitioners of it aren't his kind at all. They're a bunch of people, like scientologists, who have been sucked into a dumb religion/thing.

Honestly mate, these people are as gentle as rabbits. Imagine a Buddhist Greenie pacifist and you're getting close.
 
The Atheist said:
Ok. Not sure I agree this applies to Falun Gong. The guy who kicked it off was nuts, but the practitioners of it aren't his kind at all. They're a bunch of people, like scientologists, who have been sucked into a dumb religion/thing.

Honestly mate, these people are as gentle as rabbits. Imagine a Buddhist Greenie pacifist and you're getting close.
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The may be, but that does not make their cause seem sympatic. Fighting for your human rights, and such, and it inspires sympathy and support, but some strange meditation sect, no matter how harmless, will leave a lot of people indifferent.

Mind you, I have no idea if this goes into the Chinese government's motives, I just mentioned the possibility.

Hans
 
I will return to post more later, but for the time being wish to issue a complete apology for my previous post of about a week ago. I was, unfortunately, drunk at the time I wrote it (having just returned from a party), and therefore failed to show the restraint and respect that is due to people within this forum.

I stand by the spirit of what I said -- I see far, far too many "human rights" advocates who do far more harm than good in China because they don't understand the situation at all, and go blundering about like arrogant but clumsy buffoons -- but it could have (and should have) been stated in a more rational and less confrontational/judgmental style.
 
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