Human Rights in China

Wolfman said:
I will return to post more later, but for the time being wish to issue a complete apology for my previous post of about a week ago. I was, unfortunately, drunk at the time I wrote it (having just returned from a party), and therefore failed to show the restraint and respect that is due to people within this forum.

Actually, I think we are having a bit of a double standard here. JREF mission compliant posts can be confrontational and abusive (just look at how some people are addressing CTs), but when somebody makes a slightly controversial point, they must be polite and restrained.

;)

Hans

Edited to add quote.
 
Thanks, Hans...but this has nothing to do with LREF's standards, it is my own personal standards. Regardless of how others may act, I try to conduct my own behavior in a responsible manner, particularly avoiding emotional outbursts and personal attacks. I failed on both counts in one particular post.

Let's try to get this discussion back on track. To summarize my key points:

1) While China most definitely has human rights abuses, those abuses are not as bad as is often depicted in the western media, and the situation is improving quite steadily.

2) While no one should ignore China's abuses, or make excuses for them, I believe that a negative policy of isolation and ultimatums is counter-productive, more likely to cause a decrease in the pace of positive change in China. Rather, I believe that positive engagement with the Chinese government, offering definite incentives to continue on their current path of development and change, is the policy which will most benefit the Chinese people.

3) Too often, plain ignorance on the part of "human rights advocates" results in more damage than help to the Chinese people. Blind ideology is dangerous regardless of your particular beliefs or political alignment. This is not a "political" issue to me -- it is a "people" issue. What is most beneficial to the people of China? I see far too many times that the actual people involved are sacrificed to political ideologies -- both those of the communists, and those of western democratic nations.

To go back to my original post, and the example I gave of the factory that was closed down by political rights activists. I'm sure that, after accomplishing this, those people were walking around in self-satisfied glory, having accomplished their political goals. They did not give a damn about the actual people involved, or what the effect on them would be. They didn't make any effort whatsoever to replace what those people had lost -- good jobs, and a good school. It is easy, and cheap, to be that kind of activist. They march around in self-righteous glory, proclaiming their wonderful accomplishments, while in China people suffer as a result of their 'accomplishments'.

I have profound respect for those who seek change in China and demonstrate their commitment to that change by coming here, meeting the actual people, and understanding the situation. I have nothing but disgust for armchair activists who don't know a thing about China beyond what they read in the press. The former take a personal involvement, they meet the people who will be affected, and they share the risks/results of their decisions. The latter will never see the people affected, and they face no personal risk whatsoever. They are lazy, insincere idiots. It is amazing how much harm can be done by a well-intentioned individual who doesn't have a clue what they're actually doing.
 
2) While no one should ignore China's abuses, or make excuses for them, I believe that a negative policy of isolation and ultimatums is counter-productive, more likely to cause a decrease in the pace of positive change in China. Rather, I believe that positive engagement with the Chinese government, offering definite incentives to continue on their current path of development and change, is the policy which will most benefit the Chinese people.

I agree, and I'm actually participating in doing that (which is why I leave for Beijing on Saturday). We start factories, and run them to our human right standards, while providing jobs, education, and fair wages. We engage suppliers and require them to live up to certain human rights and environmental standards.

No, we're not saints. We have the luck to be in a business that allows us enough profit margin to do this and still make a fine profit from it.

Hans
 
2) While no one should ignore China's abuses, or make excuses for them, I believe that a negative policy of isolation and ultimatums is counter-productive, more likely to cause a decrease in the pace of positive change in China. Rather, I believe that positive engagement with the Chinese government, offering definite incentives to continue on their current path of development and change, is the policy which will most benefit the Chinese people.
I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but what I'd really like you to do is suggest a way that the regime can be encouraged to stop persecuting Falun Gong.

I see neither carrots nor sticks being shown to China at the moment.
 

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