Merged Hugo Chavez Esta Muerto

[angrysoba]

No, I perfer the scenario where there is a government plan behind the killings - it reduces population growth and gives the peons extra worries to distract them from abyssimal government performance elsewhere.

And you have evidence for the scheme to reduce population growth by mass murder?

Similarily the economic mismanagement of Venezuela isn't random incompetence, but a deliberate incompetence: people who are economically dependent on you, as a large portion of Venezuela now is dependent on the government, don't rebel and they certainly don't fund the opposition.

No big conspiracy here, just old school feudalism.

McHrozni

I have no doubt that Chavez threw money around to supporters and gave out lavish unsustainable welfare. That's a separate issue.

 

[WildCat]

Well it now appears that the incompetent Venezuelan government waited until Chavez was a bit too ripe, and now their plans of preserving him like Lenin may have some problems: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...z-embalmingbre92c1gc-20130313,0,6904199.story

 

[timhau]

America not only gave him cancer, but also rotted his corpse.

 

[McHrozni]

And you have evidence for the scheme to reduce population growth by mass murder?

Okay, it is true, it won't do much to cull the population, the death toll isn't high enough yet. But as a distraction from bigger issues? It works, doesn't it?

I'm not privy to Venezuelan govenrment documents and plans, so I can not prove it. Hower the above scenario only requires a government that spent 14 years in power and systematically destroyed democracy in plain sight to know what it is doing in some of the issues it faced.

I have no doubt that Chavez threw money around to supporters and gave out lavish unsustainable welfare. That's a separate issue.

It serves the same purpose and as such is circumstantial evidence the above may be accurate. Clearly Hugo knew very well why he dished out welfare and why he alligned with Iran, Belarus and most of all, Cuba. I don't doubt the destruction of much of Venezuelan economy was deliberate. Yes, the mechanism was incompetence, but the reasoning behind it was cold cunning. Why not the security situation as well?

McHrozni

 

[WildCat]

America not only gave him cancer, but also rotted his corpse.

Maybe he just smelled like that all the time so nobody thought it was unusual.

 

[angrysoba]

Okay, it is true, it won't do much to cull the population, the death toll isn't high enough yet. But as a distraction from bigger issues? It works, doesn't it?

I'm not privy to Venezuelan govenrment documents and plans, so I can not prove it. Hower the above scenario only requires a government that spent 14 years in power and systematically destroyed democracy in plain sight to know what it is doing in some of the issues it faced.

Well, I would have preferred it if you had just said it was a theory. You have had me trying to research this topic and finding no apparent evidence that Chavez was pursuing a policy of murdering his opposition or murdering his population to keep the numbers low.

I'm not saying it is impossible that Chavez has had people killed. But you don't have evidence for it. Certainly not the kind of evidence which we have in warehouse-loads for the murders of Stalin, including deliberate policies of exacerbating the Ukranian famine amounting to mass murder (that's certainly the conclusions that scholars working on the recently released Soviet archives have said apparently corroborating what Conquest and others suspected.)

It serves the same purpose and as such is circumstantial evidence the above may be accurate. Clearly Hugo knew very well why he dished out welfare and why he alligned with Iran, Belarus and most of all, Cuba. I don't doubt the destruction of much of Venezuelan economy was deliberate. Yes, the mechanism was incompetence, but the reasoning behind it was cold cunning. Why not the security situation as well?

McHrozni

Well, as I have said, I have no interest in supporting Chavez and I never have. But I want an honest and an accurate reckoning of his time in office. The problem with extrapolating beyond the known facts is that it begins to look propagandistic especially when you eventually have to concede you have no evidence for charges of murder. His record is damning enough; there really is no need to exaggerate it.

 

[McHrozni]

Well, I would have preferred it if you had just said it was a theory. You have had me trying to research this topic and finding no apparent evidence that Chavez was pursuing a policy of murdering his opposition or murdering his population to keep the numbers low.

Hm, I thought it was obvious - there is no evidence it was all just a big bundle of incompetence either. My apologies.

I'm not saying it is impossible that Chavez has had people killed. But you don't have evidence for it. Certainly not the kind of evidence which we have in warehouse-loads for the murders of Stalin, including deliberate policies of exacerbating the Ukranian famine amounting to mass murder (that's certainly the conclusions that scholars working on the recently released Soviet archives have said apparently corroborating what Conquest and others suspected.)

Certainly not, but with Holodomor we have three very distinct advantages:
- Stalin's successor deliberately tried to discredit him and change the country, he succeeded to considerable extent
- USSR doesn't exist any more, as you mention their archives were opened, not so with Venezuela
- the whole event happened quite a long time ago, and we've had plenty of time and opportunities to gather data, which is not the case with Venezuela

Well, as I have said, I have no interest in supporting Chavez and I never have. But I want an honest and an accurate reckoning of his time in office. The problem with extrapolating beyond the known facts is that it begins to look propagandistic especially when you eventually have to concede you have no evidence for charges of murder. His record is damning enough; there really is no need to exaggerate it.

I never accused him of murder. I haven't accused him of ordering assasinations either, few if any opposition leaders were murdered (not so for some labor leaders, but that's another story) and Caprilles and Falcone - two main leaders - are both still alive and kicking at this time. That said, the degradation of security situation in the country was, in all likelyhood, deliberate and amounts to a killing policy.

McHrozni

 

[angrysoba]

I never accused him of murder. I haven't accused him of ordering assasinations either, few if any opposition leaders were murdered (not so for some labor leaders, but that's another story) and Caprilles and Falcone - two main leaders - are both still alive and kicking at this time.

Well, okay. We certainly never had to wait that long for Stalin to commit murder and to all of his opponents and to order assassinations. And we knew about them. It has actually only recently been proved that Stalin was behind the hit on Trotsky, but there was never any real doubt.

My point was that these set the two apart. Therefore there was qualitative, not just quantitative differences. There are no doubt more with the purges, the Gulags and the famine.

That said, the degradation of security situation in the country was, in all likelyhood, deliberate and amounts to a killing policy.

McHrozni

This may be true. And the activities of his security forces need serious attention whether Chavez was ordering killing or not. There should be attempts to bring them to justice and hopefully if the opposition ever get in they will be. Hopefully the records will be opened sooner rather than later too.

But anyway, I think we've done this to death, so lets agree to have separate suspicions and see how it plays out.

 

[McHrozni]

This may be true. And the activities of his security forces need serious attention whether Chavez was ordering killing or not. There should be attempts to bring them to justice and hopefully if the opposition ever get in they will be. Hopefully the records will be opened sooner rather than later too.

Don't hold your breath, too many peoples' fortunes and freedoms rely on the inner workings of the Chavista narcostate for this to become public any time soon, regardless of who wins the next election. It will last a generation, if we're lucky.

But anyway, I think we've done this to death, so lets agree to have separate suspicions and see how it plays out.

I certainly agree
Any bets on how April 15th pans out?

McHrozni

 

[dudalb]

Well it now appears that the incompetent Venezuelan government waited until Chavez was a bit too ripe, and now their plans of preserving him like Lenin may have some problems: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...z-embalmingbre92c1gc-20130313,0,6904199.story

Ya gotta love Marxist Efficency......

 

[WildCat]

Chavez is gone, but the problems he caused remain:

The road from the military academy where Hugo Chavez's body has been lying in state to the hilltop museum where he'll be displayed indefinitely is lined with some of the most dangerous slums on the planet. It runs under bridges in dire need of repair and past grocery stores with no groceries.

Tens of thousands of Venezuelans gathered along that route Friday to watch the late president's body cross the city in yet another choreographed show designed to keep Chavez supporters in thrall, at least until an April 14 election scheduled to replace him. Afterward, people will have to go on living with the problems that Chavez left behind.

This tense, relentlessly gray capital embodies many of Venezuela's problems, with crumbling apartment towers and food lines often sharing the same sidewalk with cheering crowds eager to greet their departed Comandante.

Much of Chavez's aid to the poor came at the expense of maintaining vital infrastructure, including oil production infrastructure. Coupled with his flouting of basic laws of economics (price controls inevitably lead to shortages) he leaves behind a crumbling country with severe food shortages.

 

[tyr_13]

Chavez is gone, but the problems he caused remain:


Much of Chavez's aid to the poor came at the expense of maintaining vital infrastructure, including oil production infrastructure. Coupled with his flouting of basic laws of economics (price controls inevitably lead to shortages) he leaves behind a crumbling country with severe food shortages.

And the cry will be, "See how great he was, it all went to hell when he died."

 

[Noztradamus]

Ya gotta love Marxist Efficency......

Have a of couple of Weekend at Hugo's and the guest of honour gets a little ripe.

 

[Darth Rotor]

No it was worse during the 80s and 90s prior to Chavez getting it. He got in expressly because of the horrible times during the 80s and 90s. Which the cause of the economic crises was both the Christian Democratic party in Venezuela, and the Socialist party. Both of them continued very crappy policies that soured the economy. No one political spectrum was to blame. Again, the problem lay in Venezuela itself.

Standard dysfunctional Latin America. Quelle Suprise

America not only gave him cancer, but also rotted his corpse.

Damn,we're good. There's a fella in Korea who could use a dose, maybe a sub contract to the Mossad for their cancer ray ...

 

[Virus]

Peter Hitchens recently re-blogged his report from Venezuela in 2008:

OUT OF the grave we thought we’d shovelled it into all those years ago, revolutionary Marxism comes climbing once again. Most of us were pleased to see it go, but not all of us.

No wonder the world’s incurably fashionable Leftists, who hate their own countries, love Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez. They have been homeless since the USSR fizzled away in a cloud of rust, and even more bereft since a trembling Fidel Castro laid down his combat fatigues and went off into the twilight in his pyjamas.

Comrade Chavez has given them back a fatherland, and provided them with a hero – a strangely lovable, smiling one, with a sense of humour and a good line in teasing mockery of the United States. He also has some of the biggest oil reserves in the world.

Castro, of course, never had any oil. But Venezuela is overflowing with it, which changes everything. In this increasingly sinister country, oil money sustains a more or less unhinged regime that mixes the methods of Stalin and the presentational skills of Richard and Judy to impose socialism on the Caribbean’s southern shores.

It also makes global mischief, flirting with Iran and the rest of the outcast and stroppy nations of the world. Does it matter? Yes. Venezuela is now an important global focus for trouble; a rallying point for the enemies of Western society and lawful democracy, a new source of hope for every silly idealist, from London’s Ken Livingstone upwards.

Rest here: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...nd-judy-my-report-on-hugo-chavezs-venezu.html

 

[dudalb]

"Communism is a Really Great Idea;It is just that the right people have not tried it yet".

 

[Ziggurat]

Chavez is gone, but the problems he caused remain:

And the cry will be, "See how great he was, it all went to hell when he died."

What's "Apres moi, le deluge" in Spanish?

 

[Toontown]

"Communism is a Really Great Idea;It is just that the right people have not tried it yet".

There are no right people. They'll have to be genetically engineered.

But then, almost anything will work if you have the right people. So that's really not quite the point, is it?

 

[Darth Rotor]

después de mí, el diluvio

For Zig.

 

[blobru]

I was going to say: "Olé! la cucaracha..."

Same same, more or less.