Howard Zinn Died

[Cicero]

These right-wing tantrums are funny.

Cicero:

This is why he self-consciously set out to construct a narrative that counter-balances the self-congratulatory nonsense that has been taught in schools.

Yes, Zinn's book gets on assigned reading lists, just as Capitalism and Freedom by Milton Friedman makes reading lists, because
it's an articulate and respected expression of a point of view. One point of view of many.

Unfortunately, it is Zinn's benighted view of American history that has been embraced by authors of public school history texts for the last 40 + years. The fact that you attempt to marginalize any factual historical evidence where the USA is indeed not the bogeyman, but rather the force for good, as "self-congratulatory nonsense" is the hallmark of a Zinn apostle.

 

[Praktik]

Unfortunately, it is Zinn's benighted view of American history that has been embraced by authors of public school history texts for the last 40 + years.

Indeed, the tentacles of the liberal establishment have successfully penetrated all aspects of American life, and at the core of this sinister conspiracy?

The self-hating Howard Zinn.

 

[Cicero]

Indeed, the tentacles of the liberal establishment have successfully penetrated all aspects of American life, and at the core of this sinister conspiracy?

The self-hating Howard Zinn.

Conspiracy? 911 was a Bush/Israel/Media planned catastrophe is a conspiracy. Bush 43 blew up the New Orleans levees is a conspiracy. Liberalism as the dominant ideology embraced by public school teachers and administrators is merely a fact. Zinn didn't invent historical revisionism; he was just one of the most famous of the revisionists who made a pretty good living from it.

 

[Praktik]

Well, having studied conspiracy theory quite closely for some years now I think that the idea that liberal ideology has taken hold of government, the schools and the media is not so far removed from CT theory. The conservative persecution complex (or victim complex) often attributes various outcomes they dont like to the pernicious hold of this ideology. Common to many CT adherents is the belief that they are the targets of a powerful group inimically opposed to them and likeminded individuals.

Yes, in the higher-level formulations it is recognized that it is not the product of a secret cabal of liberals but rather a result of systemic reasons.

Lower level formulations however strike me as right in the conspiracy wheelhouse. Cleon Skousen comes to mind.

 

[Praktik]

he was just one of the most famous of the revisionists who made a pretty good living from it.

Ah nice, self-hating and now a profiteer sourced in hatred to boot.

methinks there's far more cash in the American Cheerleading Squad.

 

[grunion]

Ah nice, self-hating and now a profiteer sourced in hatred to boot.

methinks there's far more cash in the American Cheerleading Squad.

Perish the thought. Glenn Beck does it as a public service out of the goodness of his heart.

 

[Cavemonster]

Zinn gulps down as literally true the proven hoax of Polly Baker and the improbable Plough Jogger, and he repeats uncritically the old charge that President Lincoln altered his views to suit his audience.

Zinn was yet another hero of the left who, like so many of them, was essentially a fraud.

I just picked one thing to fact-check, the quote above. Here's Zinn's reference to Polly Baker (bolding mine),

For a woman to have a child out of wedlock was a crime, and colonial court records are full of cases of women being arraigned for "bastardy"-the father of the child untouched by the law and on the loose. A colonial periodical of 1747 reproduced a speech "of Miss Polly Baker before a Court of Judicature, at Connecticut near Boston in New England; where she was prosecuted the fifth time for having a Bastard Child." (The speech was Benjamin Franklin's ironic invention.)

So I'm not sure where the author you quote got the idea that Zinn believed the author to be anyone other than Ben Franklin. I'm not sure how it can be said that he has gulped down a hoax.

I'd suggest that it is the burden of Zinn's critics now to actually prove, with references, that there was any meaningful amount of inaccuracy in Zinn's work. I'm not saying it isn't there, but you've made a very poor case for it.

 

[Cicero]

Ah nice, self-hating and now a profiteer sourced in hatred to boot.

methinks there's far more cash in the American Cheerleading Squad.

Really? Name an historian who garnered the equivalent fame and success of a Zinn/Chomsky from authoring a blemish free Stars & Stripes flag-waving account of the history of the United States ?

 

[Cicero]

Well, having studied conspiracy theory quite closely for some years now I think that the idea that liberal ideology has taken hold of government, the schools and the media is not so far removed from CT theory. The conservative persecution complex (or victim complex) often attributes various outcomes they don't like to the pernicious hold of this ideology. Common to many CT adherents is the belief that they are the targets of a powerful group inimically opposed to them and likeminded individuals.

You study conspiracy theory with the same myopic view Zinn studies American history. When have public school teachers been predominately conservative? That is the subject relevant to how history is taught in public school, not the liberal impact on government or media.

Yes, in the higher-level formulations it is recognized that it is not the product of a secret cabal of liberals but rather a result of systemic reasons.

You are the only one speaking of "secret cabals."

Lower level formulations however strike me as right in the conspiracy wheelhouse. Cleon Skousen comes to mind.

Liberalism as the predominate ideology embraced by public school teachers and college professors has zero to do with conspiratorial musings from the wheelhouse, the charthouse, the bridge, the fo'c'sle, or the lido deck.

 

[Praktik]

Really? Name an historian who garnered the equivalent fame and success of a Zinn/Chomsky from authoring a blemish free Stars & Stripes flag-waving account of the history of the United States ?

Im not current on all the figures in American history I'm sure other posters could point to mainstream historians who make a lot more money, like the guy who wrote that Andrew Jackson book lately and appears on all the talk shows regularly. OF course thats a bit more mainstream and may not be "flag waving" as much as it is "safe".

But Skousen's The 5,000 year leap has exceeded 1.5 million in sales, they are saying A People's History sold a million. 250 000 of Skousen's were sold in the first half of 2009 alone (not sure if thats in the 1.5 million number above). Plus Beck repackages those ideas and makes millions more off of it than Skousen and his heirs ever did. And this is talking about a pretty kooky and marginal figure - I'm sure the Goldberg's and Stein's and Kristol's are doing quite well...

Flag waving = money in the bank. There's a ready audience. You have only to conduct a cursory review of cable news to see actual flags waving!

 

[Praktik]

Liberalism as the predominate ideology embraced by public school teachers and college professors has zero to do with conspiratorial musings from the wheelhouse, the charthouse, the bridge, the fo'c'sle, or the lido deck.

Oh you poor souls!

Excuse me while I find my violin... poor downtrodden conservatives, ever at the mercy of liberal ideology, how do you guys keep your chins up??

 

[Cicero]

Oh you poor souls!

Excuse me while I find my violin... poor downtrodden conservatives, ever at the mercy of liberal ideology, how do you guys keep your chins up??

Are you agreeing with this "conspiracy" or admitting it is merely a fact, not a conspiracy?

 

[Cicero]

Im not current on all the figures in American history I'm sure other posters could point to mainstream historians who make a lot more money, like the guy who wrote that Andrew Jackson book lately and appears on all the talk shows regularly. OF course thats a bit more mainstream and may not be "flag waving" as much as it is "safe".

So the number of bona fide historians that garner fame and fortune from writing history from the perspective of the " American Cheerleading Squad" is zero. Good admission.

But Skousen's The 5,000 year leap has exceeded 1.5 million in sales, they are saying A People's History sold a million. 250 000 of Skousen's were sold in the first half of 2009 alone (not sure if thats in the 1.5 million number above). Plus Beck repackages those ideas and makes millions more off of it than Skousen and his heirs ever did. And this is talking about a pretty kooky and marginal figure - I'm sure the Goldberg's and Stein's and Kristol's are doing quite well...

Cleon Skousen was a Mormon American conservative author and political commentator, decidedly, not an historian. Neither Kristol, Goldberg, Stein or Buchanan are historians. Howard Zinn was referred to as an American historian and Professor of Political Science.

Flag waving = money in the bank. There's a ready audience. You have only to conduct a cursory review of cable news to see actual flags waving!

True historians are neither operating from the perspective of flag-wavers or flag desecrators.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Liberalism as the predominate ideology embraced by public school teachers and college professors has zero to do with conspiratorial musings from the wheelhouse, the charthouse, the bridge, the fo'c'sle, or the lido deck.

The libruls are everywhere! Watch out, there's one over there lurking in the bushes!

 

[grunion]

True historians are neither operating from the perspective of flag-wavers or flag desecrators.

The point is, everyone's got a perspective, whether it's parroting the stories of the great men and why they are so important or challenging them. Best to be honest about where one stands.

 

[Praktik]

The libruls are everywhere! Watch out, there's one over there lurking in the bushes!

I see him! <chk-chk - BLAMMO>

 

[Praktik]

Are you agreeing with this "conspiracy" or admitting it is merely a fact, not a conspiracy?

Im not trying to convince you of anything - nor am I conceding anything. To me, the liberal conspiracy seems to have been internalized too strongly to disabuse true believers of this notion.

 

[Praktik]

So the number of bona fide historians that garner fame and fortune from writing history from the perspective of the " American Cheerleading Squad" is zero. Good admission.

Haha! The Cicero Always Wins approach. The scoreboard in your mind might need renovating to make room for the next digit in your victory column soon!

And now that we're talking about Zinn's "fortune" - I wonder how much money he was raking in from Znet? When will the heirs start the inevitable public discord over how to divide his many millions??

My main point was that fringe socialist histories are far less lucrative than flag-waving cheerleading. I'm surprised that this is a point you would even argue.

 

[Cicero]

I'd suggest that it is the burden of Zinn's critics now to actually prove, with references, that there was any meaningful amount of inaccuracy in Zinn's work. I'm not saying it isn't there, but you've made a very poor case for it.

Who decides what is "meaningful?" Here are a couple of zany Zinn whoppers.

1) Zinn states that during the Vietnam War, BUFF pilots began to refuse to fly missions in "protest the war." How does one B-52 pilot, Captain Michael Heck, who decided to became a conscientious objector during the performance of his duties, worthy of mention as a trend of USAF pilots "protesting the war?" From 1965 to 1973, there were a total of four other USAF pilots that refused to go on combat flights since the U.S. began regular bombing missions over North Vietnam. But their refusal to fly was not about "protesting the war," but rather about flying inane missions that put pilots at risk just to make the rubble bounce.


2) Zinn's "historical" research is embarrassingly slip-shod. He wasn't aware of the fact, or too lazy to find out, that the "heroic" bra-burning during the feminists revolution was fiction.

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/burnbra.asp

 

[Cicero]

The point is, everyone's got a perspective, whether it's parroting the stories of the great men and why they are so important or challenging them. Best to be honest about where one stands.

Honesty in one's personal ideology does not trump the absence of historical facts to buttress one's position.