Do you not understand my point? A bunch of people turn up in Judah and say "We are the people who were deported from here 47 years ago." Then the folk back home would expect to meet older family members born in Judea before the deportation, or their immediate descendants -- who would have all sorts of information about the family back home, and deceased deportees: "Your cousin Zeke; why he died seven years ago. Pity he never lived to see this day." And so on. But you want me to believe a bunch of foreign missionaries could successfully pretend to be these returnees, back in the old country. Most improbable.
None of that responds effectively to my observation on the difficulty of foreigners claiming to be locals and their families returning after 47 years. Some of the deportees stayed behind in Babylon. So what? (The Babylonian Talmud, by the way, was compiled a thousand years after the end of the exile.) Nor can I accept that the persons deported were so different in social class, and so remote, from those left behind, that they could successfully be impersonated as you suggest. I rarely meet Lords or the Queen, but these early societies were smaller and more concentrated, even if rigid caste distinctions were in operation.
CraigB, can you please explain to me how you arrived at the
47 years figure?
According to my understanding Jerusalem fell in 597 BCE and Cyrus II (the great) conquered Babylon in 539 BCE.
Assuming that the slaves were freed exactly the same year Babylon fell and that they returned to Jerusalem in exactly that year then that still makes it a span of
58 years.
Do you think the books of Ezra and Nehemiah are historical? Do you think they are telling the truth even if they were “historical”? Do you think they were accurate even if they were being honest?
I suggest you spend a couple of hours reading Ezra carefully and then Nehemiah. That is all it would take just a few hours.
If you still believe that the narrative in these books is feasible then I suggest you start a new thread and let’s discuss these two books starting with how and why you think they are feasible.
Regardless, however, even if I were to grant you that Ezra/Nehemiah is in fact an accurate and honest history of the “returnees”, the books still do not support your 47 years figure. In fact they push the number to well over 150 years.
If we go by the Ezra/Nehemeiah narrative the returnees seem to have actually returned in three expeditions the Nehemiah one (Nehemiah 2:1) is said to be 20 years into the time of Artaxerxes' rule. The Ezra mission seems to be in the time of Artaxerxes too (Ezra 7:1). But Which Artaxerxes is it I or II? The Zerubbabel expedition is said to have been in the first year of Cyrus II (Ezra 1:1) but there is something amiss here. Let’s examine the narrative a little more closely.
Keep in mind
this timeline during the discussion below.
According to Ezra 1:1 the first wave of returnees started to prepare for the trek in the 1st year of Cyrus II despite the fact that Cyrus was not the one who actually conquered Canaan and the region. It was his son Cambyses who in fact conquered Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt in 529 BCE. So if we were to be more realistic the first wave of returnees could not have succeeded in returning until the Persian rule was consolidated over the region which brings the lapsed time to
68 years.
But the T
5 is not over yet.
We are told that when Zerubbabel et al started building the temple "the people of the land” (Ezra 4:4) asked them to help with the construction (Ezra 4:2) but Zerubbabel rejects them saying they have nothing to do with their god (Ezra 4:3) and they are only carrying out the commands of Cyrus II.
However this quarrel seems to be taking place in the time of Artaxerxes I(Ezra 4:7, 8,11,23) rather than Cyrus II or even Cambyses or Darius I. So this pushes the year to at least 465 BCE assuming it is Artaxerxes I. This makes it
132 years of lapsed time. Even if we are to say that this is a mistake and they meant to say Xerxes it would still be 485 BCE which still makes it
112 years of elapsed time.
Zerubbabel had to stop work (Ezra 4:24) due to all the letters back and forth that these freed slaves seem to have been privy to and they themselves are also writing letters to the Persian Emperors.
The quarrel went on into the reign of Darius who could only be II not I since the first preceded Artaxerxes I and even Xerxes. This by the way makes it more likely that the narrative did mean Artaxerxes I rather than Xerxes which pushes us again to
132 years of elapsed time.
We are told these freed slaves have the ability to know what correspondence was going on between "the people of the land" and the Persian Imperial Court (Ezra 4:8-24) and these returned slaves themselves are also in contact with the Imperial court and send a letter to Darius II telling him to look up the archives and research the orders of Cyrus II to empty the coffers of Babylon of their looted gold and silver and holy cutlery (Ezra 5:11-17).
Incredibly Darius II is so benevolent to these slaves freed by his great-great-great-great-grandfather. He is so concerned about them and their YHWH and even hopes that they pray to YHWH on his and his children’s behalf in their temple (Ezra 6:10). More astoundingly he does not just order more treasure to be sent to them along with designs for the temple (Ezra 6:1-8), he also orders that taxes and tributes of the region should be paid to them so as to complete the building of the temple of YHWH (Ezra 6:8-12). And all this is from a theocratic Zoroastrian Emperor who worships Ahura Mazda to the exclusion of all other gods who according to Zoroastrianism are demons.
So now we are to believe that Zerubbabel returned in the first year of Cyrus II but then went on quarrelling with “the people of the land” whose help he rejected because they have nothing to do with his god for until the “second year of Darius II” (Ezra 4:24).
So how much time is that? If we are to take the fact that Cyrus II supposedly freed the slaves and sent them home with 7000 slaves of their own in 539 BCE and that the second year of Darius II was say 425 BCE then this is a span of 114 years.
So the first wave of returnees still did not build Jerusalem or the temple even after the lapse of 114 years after they supposedly were freed. In other words
172 years since the destruction of Jerusalem it was still desolate and the first wave of returnees still were quarrelling with “the people of the land” over the LEGITIMACY of themselves and their mission.
Given the life spans of biblical heroes this is nothing. But in reality this is not feasible. If Zerubbabel was born in Jerusalem he would have been over 172 years old when he was battling the “people of the land” over who is a more legitimate Judean.
For Nehemiah’s pilgrimage the narrative states that there was nothing yet built and Jerusalem was still in ruins (Nehemiah 2:17). So by the 20th year of Artaxerxes (Nehemiah 2:1) he must mean the I not the II since in Ezra 4:17-24 we are told this is the king who ordered the stopping of the building of the temple and the reconstruction commenced again in the second year of Darius II and went on smoothly from then onwards until completion. So Nehemiah’s mission was at least in 445 BCE which is
152 years (but could have been 164 see later) after the Babylonian rapine.
Now consider the Ezra expedition. In Ezra 7:1 it says
Now after these things, in the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra the son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah,
So the question is, is this the I or the II Artaxerxes?
The phrase
“after these things” is obviously referring to the quarrel resolved by Darius II (Ezra 6) which then means that it must be the II Artaxerxes. This is also borne out by the narrative in that when he arrives the Judeans already have a temple and they have been marrying and breading with “the people of the land” which Ezra abhors and orders everyone to immediately divorce and abandon their families (Ezra 8,9 and 10). What gave Ezra such supreme authority to the extent of telling the Judeans they need to throw away their children and wives?
However there is a problem. In Nehemiah 8:1-7 it describes a scene where Ezra the scribe brings out what might have been the Torah and starts reading to the people. Did not the returnee slaves have any scriptures for so long? Why is Ezra such an authority? Why was no body publically reading the Torah before Ezra?
Also we have another problem with Nehemiah. Even though he says in Nehemiah 2:1 that he went to Jerusalem in the 20th year of Artaxerxes I he later says in Nehemiah 13:6 that he did not go to Jerusalem until the 32nd year of Artaxerxes I.
So what are we to make of this? Did Ezra go to Jerusalem in the reign of Artaxerxes II as is implied by Ezra 7:1 or was it 20 years (Nehemiah 2:1) or 32 years (Nehemiah 13:6) into the reign of Artaxerxes I?
Ezra’s mission could not have been any earlier than 445 BCE or 433 BCE or 405 BCE. In other words Ezra’s expedition was at least
152 years since the destruction of Jerusalem if not 164 or even 192 years.
I think Nehemiah is a confusion since it contradicts its own account. I’m inclined to think that Ezra was a scribal expedition sent over to rule the first lot who already built a temple.
Nehemiah’s was an inspection expedition to supervise the work and move it along after it got bogged down as a result of the first wave’s quarrels with the “people of the land” and the temple was not yet built nor was Jerusalem even walled by say 20 years into Artaxerxes I reign. So giving the temple time to be built well during Darius II reign, then Ezra’s commission must have been in fact during Artaxerxes II reign especially considering that Darius II ruled about 20 years only and that might be just about right to complete the building of the temple and the walls of Jerusalem.
So I am inclined to think that Ezra’s expedition was no earlier than 405 BCE which makes it
192 years after the destruction of Jerusalem.
So let us establish a timeline for this tale… 597 to 539 to 445 to 425 to 405
- 597 BCE
Nebuchadnezzar destroys Jerusalem and takes 10,000 people captives to Babylon as slaves but yet they are allowed to keep their religious scroll and genealogical lists despite the fact that all their holy Tupperware and cutlery has been confiscated and shut up in Babylonian coffers never to be touched for nearly 60 years. He also installed the previous King’s Uncle as a puppet king despite the fact that Jerusalem was emptied according to common perception which is not borne by archaeology in any case.
- 539 BCE
Cyrus II conquers Babylon and immediately frees 42360 Judean slaves (Ezra 2:64) who have been slaves for 58 years breading and learning and reading religious scrolls in between their slave duties all the while keeping track of their genealogical lists of who is who.
This Zoroastrian Theocratic Emperor has no more pressing matters after his conquest of Babylon than to also design a temple (Ezra 6:3-5) layout and manner of building for a foreign god called YHWH he has never heard of and orders the emptying of all the looted gold and silver and precious cutlery from the coffers of Babylon where this treasure has been sitting for the last 58 years untouched and unspoiled and never tempting anyone. He gives all that to those slaves along with thousands of pack animals and of course thousands of slaves for the freed slaves to own. I wonder why Cyrus did not free those poor slaves who are destined to remain slaves for freed slaves.
- ca 445 BCE
The Zoroastrian Theocratic Emperor is concerned about the mood of his wine pourer Nehemiah and asks him while he is pouring his wine “what’s the matter old man?” (Nehemiah 2:1-4). Nehemiah explains to this Ahura Mazda worshiper that he is concerned about the state of Jerusalem which somehow this wine pourer seems to know all about from his vantage point as a servant in the court. Why did he not leave with Zerubbabel’s expedition? He asks the Emperor to let him go on a vacation. Surprisingly this nice emperor seems to love his servant and asks him how long a vacation he will need and when will he return from his return to resume his servile duties after he has had his respite resolving the problems of Jerusalem.
Moreover this unbelievably empathetic Emperor does not just let his servant leave on a holiday for as long as he needs, he also sends a garrison of Captains and Cavalry (Nehemiah 2:7) to guard him and force other kings along the way to Jerusalem to obey the letters he is also giving him so as to be able to collect wood and gold and more holy Tupperware in order to resume building the city of YHWH who Artaxerxes as a worshiper of Ahura Mazda would have been totally concerned about of course. Never mind the little detail that this is the same King who a few chapters earlier ordered the stopping of the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its temple (Ezra 4:19-22) on the grounds of having a history of being a bellicose city.
- 425 BCE (or maybe 437 BCE)
Darius II a Zoroastrian Emperor receives a letter from the leaders of those slaves to resolve a quarrel between these returned slaves and the “people of the land” whom they despise and deny that they worship the same god as them despite being supposedly their relatives who ought to have recognized them. We are also to believe that this quarrel has been now going on for around 114 years.
If you are not already filled to the rim with T5, here is another one. Darius II the theocrat of Ahura Mazda orders that the temple for YHWH should be constructed and he sends further gold from the coffers of Babylon and ordains that the tributes and taxes of the “other side of the river” be given to the Judeans so as to complete the Temple for YHWH from whom he hopes to get blessings for himself and for his Zoroastrian children. (Ezra 6:7-12)
- 405 BCE
Ezra is sent with yet more gold and silver and more “returnees” (Ezra 7:1-27) along with their own slaves to go and inspect the status of YHWH’s temple and city and “beautify” it (Ezra 7:27). This other freed slave returnee somehow or another has MAJOR COMMAND over the people who are already there from supposedly 134 years earlier.
Moreover he has this scriptures which the earlier two stages of returnees already there for a century and a half don't seem to have read until Ezra comes over and reads it to them and they are all emotionally moved by hearing it (Nehemiah 8:1-8).
If we are to consider real historicity assuming this whole tall tale has any basis in history in the first place and that the muddled up narrative is just mistakes, then we can only conclude that at the very least
152 years would have elapsed before any “returnees” were in Jerusalem since the invasion of Nebuchadnezzar in 597BCE until the AUTHORITIES of Nehmeiah and Ezra were commissioned ca 445 to go and sort out the mess in Jerusalem because Darius II and Artaxerxes I were so darned preoccupied to help out slaves to keep on owning slaves and build a temple to a god they would have not cared about if not even abhorred as a demon according to their Theocracy.
Also consider that the “people of the land” objected violently to all this. If those theocratic Emperors wanted to control the land with puppet regimes wouldn’t it have been more prudent to actually assign puppets from among the “people of the land” rather than from among almost dead freed slaves from Babylon?
If anyone can find a different timeline according to the Ezra/Nehemiah narrative please let me know. All the above is what I have discerned from a careful reading of the book for the umpteenth time already. But I am only a student of biblical studies and not by any means a scholar, so please any scholars tell me where am I wrong.
Even if we were to allow the minimal REALISTIC elapsed years between the Diaspora and the return of 68 years I am betting that most over 15 might have died during this span of time especially considering that they were slaves and have had to endure a trek of thousands of miles across a desert being goaded along at the tips of swords and lashes of sadistic despotic killers called soldiers for a sadistic despotic Empire.
I doubt many would survive slavery well into their 80s. I also do not think many over the age of 70 could have survived the trek back to Jerusalem as freed slaves regardless of the gold and silver (or perhaps because of it) and despite being attended upon by thousands of slaves and sung to by hundreds of singing slaves on the way while riding on their thousands of pack animals.
This means not many people over the age of 5 could have made it back as returnees with the first Zerubbabel migration. The other wave of Nehemiah being 152 years later would not have contained any returnees whatsoever and not even their children. It is even more absurd to think that Ezra could have been a returnee given that his expedition was at least 192 years later. If Ezra ever was alive in Jerusalem and carried away he would have been well over 192 years old by the time he saw Jerusalem again. For a Bible tall tales that might pass, but for reality this is what I would call a
Telltale Testimonial To Tall Tales alright.
Also have a look at the rest of the book of Nehemiah (13:15-31). He describes how these returnees (again as has been mentioned in the Bible ad nauseam umpteen times in almost every book) resume worshiping gods other than YHWH even after all that. Preposterous.
