How much time do we really have?

[I Ratant]

Not necessarily. I was referring to this then it is relevant that there was an early text, which might have curbed the inventiveness that you ascribe to these companions. And I wasn't sure what you meant by Did you mean his own recollections? Or some text containing the recollections also of other Companions?

.
The Companions came up with their own -recollections-, there was no early text.
.
What Ai'sha said...
"And, as Brian-M pointed out, the Companions each had versions of the Qur'an that differed from each other, which is why 'Uthman had to codify a definitive version and order all the variant copies to be burned.

And even then, there were still variances in the text, since, as you say, it was all about recitation, and there were a number of different "recitations", or Qira'at. "
.
For "codify", read "tossed out versions he disagreed with".

 

[Nay_Sayer]

For humans? Barring Nuclear destruction, I give us a million tops before we deplete our resources.

 

[catsmate]

That is the religion of those people. Similar for, say, DOC.

I'm reminded of Charles Stross:

We all want to believe. We’re hard-wired for it; our brains are hungry to glom onto something that makes sense of the world around us. Anything that gives us purpose or meaning. Believe in God, believe in family, believe in the country, believe in Manchester United, believe that there’s nothing out there but darkness and that nothing matters.
It’s hard to sustain a belief on your own, so you find others who believe like you do. For most beliefs, that’s harmless. It’s going to church, it’s spending time with your relatives, it’s subscribing to Sky Sports, it’s arguing on the internet.
But if you believe in certain things – things that don’t quite exist in our reality, but are all too real nonetheless – then you’re one of them. A cultist, possessed of monstrous beliefs, soon to be possessed by monsters. You don’t care, of course; you believe you’re doing the right thing by opening your mind to the Outer Gods.
And as a foulness shall ye know them. When you go out and look for like-minded believers, you’ll know them by the goat-stink of madness that clings to them. You’ll know them by the ritual scars, by the blood caked under their fingernails, by the eyes that hunger for the wild times
promised in the prophecies.
You’ll know them by the power they offer you. By the sacrifices you’ll make.
Join them. Believe.

Thankfully in the Real World extra-dimensional things aren't trying to control us and break through into our universe, and CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN isn't immanent.

But still we believe, in nonsense like gods and mediums, psi and magic sugar pills. Despite the nagging of our intellect that says it's all crap, so the believers have to desperately trawl their primitive tribal fairy stories, and distort the ravings of the shamans into something, anything, that can be used to prop up their belief and quell those annoying, skeptical voices, inside and out.

 

[Polaris]

And, as Brian-M pointed out, the Companions each had versions of the Qur'an that differed from each other, which is why 'Uthman had to codify a definitive version and order all the variant copies to be burned.

And even then, there were still variances in the text, since, as you say, it was all about recitation, and there were a number of different "recitations", or Qira'at.

Convenient.

 

[mikeb768]

And, as Brian-M pointed out, the Companions each had versions of the Qur'an that differed from each other, which is why 'Uthman had to codify a definitive version and order all the variant copies to be burned.

And even then, there were still variances in the text, since, as you say, it was all about recitation, and there were a number of different "recitations", or Qira'at.

Yes, but had an incorrect copy been the version which prevailed it is quite unlikely that the following two miracles would have remained intact:

[Quran 89:3] “By the even and the odd.” Link

[Quran 74:30] "Over it are 19" Link [Including previously censored portion]

In fact we remove just one chapter or verse from the first example the whole thing starts to unravel, and if we remove just one word from the second example many portions start to fall apart.

Why belie the signs which have been sent forward?

 

[A'isha]

In fact we remove just one chapter or verse from the first example the whole thing starts to unravel, and if we remove just one word from the second example many portions start to fall apart.

Such as the basmala?

 

[mikeb768]

Yes, but had an incorrect copy been the version which prevailed it is quite unlikely that the following two miracles would have remained intact:

[Quran 89:3] “By the even and the odd.” Link Example

[Quran 74:30] "Over it are 19" Link [Including previously censored portion]

In fact if we remove just one chapter or verse from the first example the whole thing starts to unravel, and if we remove just one word from the second example many portions start to fall apart.

Why belie the signs which have been sent forward?

*Corrected to say "IF" and to include Example photo

 

[Craig B]

[Quran 89:3] “By the even and the odd.” Link Example

[Quran 74:30] "Over it are 19" Link [Including previously censored portion]

In fact if we remove just one chapter or verse from the first example the whole thing starts to unravel, and if we remove just one word from the second example many portions start to fall apart.

Why belie the signs which have been sent forward?

*Corrected to say "IF" and to include Example photo

This is all just silly numerology. It is plain daft. The total number of references in the Quran to land plus sea, divided by the number of references to sea, is equal to the proportion of land and sea on earth today. That's just one example of the mind-numbing stuff in the linked source.

 

[fishbob]

This is sort of interesting as a purely academic excercise - where it should stay since how much time we really have is inversely proportional to the number of people who actually believe this stuff.

 

[A'isha]

[Quran 74:30] "Over it are 19" Link [Including previously censored portion]

That "previously censored portion" is merely a regurgitation of Rashad Khalifa's nonsense claims. And it contradicts the numbers in your post that you link to: in that post, you say that there are 6236 ayat in the Qur'an, but the image says that there are 6346 ayat. Why is there a 110-verse discrepancy there, mikeb768?

And since the image is merely plagiarized from Khalifa's nonsense calculations, it includes all of his errors and deliberate distortions. The 6346 ayat count includes only 127 ayat for sura 9, not the 129 it actually contains, because Khalifa rejected the last two verses of that sura. 6346 is a multiple of 19, but 6348 is not.

The image claims that al-Rahim ("the Merciful") is in the Qur'an 114 times, which is a multiple of 19. It's not...it's in the Qur'an 116 times...which, like 6348 above, is not a multiple of 19.

The image also claims that Allah is in the Qur'an 2698 times, which is a multiple of 19. It's not...it's in the Qur'an 2699 times (it's used in 9:129, which, remember, Khalifa rejects and does not use in his calculations)...which, like 6348 and 116 above, is not a multiple of 19.

Would you like me to go on, mikeb768?

 

[Darth Rotor]

An here I always thought Al Quran meant "the readings."

Nuance in translation or idiom, I suppose.

 

[mikeb768]

That "previously censored portion" is merely a regurgitation of Rashad Khalifa's nonsense claims. And it contradicts the numbers in your post that you link to: in that post, you say that there are 6236 ayat in the Qur'an, but the image says that there are 6346 ayat. Why is there a 110-verse discrepancy there, mikeb768?

And since the image is merely plagiarized from Khalifa's nonsense calculations, it includes all of his errors and deliberate distortions. The 6346 ayat count includes only 127 ayat for sura 9, not the 129 it actually contains, because Khalifa rejected the last two verses of that sura. 6346 is a multiple of 19, but 6348 is not.

The image claims that al-Rahim ("the Merciful") is in the Qur'an 114 times, which is a multiple of 19. It's not...it's in the Qur'an 116 times...which, like 6348 above, is not a multiple of 19.

The image also claims that Allah is in the Qur'an 2698 times, which is a multiple of 19. It's not...it's in the Qur'an 2699 times (it's used in 9:129, which, remember, Khalifa rejects and does not use in his calculations)...which, like 6348 and 116 above, is not a multiple of 19.

Would you like me to go on, mikeb768?

Interesting, I always knew that there was a difference of 110 when counting the ayats of numbered ayats vs unmumbered ayats. I always though that unnumbered "Bismillah al-rahman al-rahim"s and the additional "Bismillah..." found in Surah 9 accounted for this.

That is a good find. If you have more knowledge to share regarding this topic then please do, although it would probably better to start a new thread. Also where have you seen a Sura 9 with only 127 ayats?

Also are you saying that you agree with the miracle of the "even and odd" but disagree with some or all parts of the miracle pertain to the number "19"?

 

[A'isha]

Interesting, I always knew that there was a difference of 110 when counting the ayats of numbered ayats vs unmumbered ayats. I always though that unnumbered "Bismillah al-rahman al-rahim"s and the additional "Bismillah..." found in Surah 9 accounted for this.

In other words, you might want to rethink your whole "if we remove just one chapter or verse from the first example the whole thing starts to unravel, and if we remove just one word from the second example many portions start to fall apart" thing.

Also where have you seen a Sura 9 with only 127 ayats?

The offical website of Rashad Khalifa, who is the one who made every single one of the calculations about the number 19 in the Qur'an that appear in the image you linked in your post above:

*9:1 & *9:127 This is the only sura that is not prefixed with the Basmalah. This phenomenon has puzzled the students of the Quran for 14 centuries, and many theories were advanced to explain it. Now we realize that the conspicuous absence of the Basmalah serves three purposes: (1) It represents an advance divine proclamation that the idol worshipers were destined to tamper with the Quran by adding 2 false verses (9:128-129). (2) It demonstrates one of the functions of God's mathematical code in the Quran, namely, to guard the Quran against any alteration. (3) It provides additional miraculous features of the Quran's code. Due to their extraordinary importance, the details are given in Appendices 24 and 29. One immediate observation is that the number of occurrences of the word "God" at the end of Sura 9 is 1273 (19x67). If the two false verses 128 & 129 are included, this phenomenon - and many more - will vanish.

It's kind of hard to argue that the Qur'an is miraculously preserved and even more miraculously contains miraculous references to the number 19 when the only way to get those "19" calculations to work is to excise multiple ayat from the text!

Also are you saying that you agree with the miracle of the "even and odd" but disagree with some or all parts of the miracle pertain to the number "19"?

No.

 

[Craig B]

Interesting, I always knew that there was a difference of 110 when counting the ayats of numbered ayats vs unmumbered ayats. I always though that unnumbered "Bismillah al-rahman al-rahim"s and the additional "Bismillah..." found in Surah 9 accounted for this.

That is a good find. If you have more knowledge to share regarding this topic then please do, although it would probably better to start a new thread. Also where have you seen a Sura 9 with only 127 ayats?

Also are you saying that you agree with the miracle of the "even and odd" but disagree with some or all parts of the miracle pertain to the number "19"?

To the eye of a non-religious observer, all this looks insane and trivial. If the Quran is a communication from the Creator, why should it be made to look like a collection of spells intended to conceal an elaborate but utterly pointless pattern of numbers? Is this pattern in any case not a form of pareidolia, or like the things found by crazy people who see messages hidden in the text of Shakespeare's plays, proving they were written by someone else?

 

[Hungry81]

To the eye of a non-religious observer, all this looks insane and trivial. If the Quran is a communication from the Creator, why should it be made to look like a collection of spells intended to conceal an elaborate but utterly pointless pattern of numbers? Is this pattern in any case not a form of pareidolia, or like the things found by crazy people who see messages hidden in the text of Shakespeare's plays, proving they were written by someone else?

No its all true, for example when going through the bible AND the Koran, I found these words scattered repeatedly throughout on various pages. To a un educated non believer they would almost seem random. Here's a sample of a few of these words in no particular order: God/Allah, is, not and real. What do you think they mean?

 

[Craig B]

Deleted.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

@mikeb768
Read the main site much?

Epic fail. Again.

 

[asydhouse]

That fella in the video could be hired to teach Catholic doctrine.
He has profound difficulty in getting to the point.
Maybe I just have a short attention span, or maybe I worship the false god of Pith.

Tho, when it cometh to a choice of paths, you take the pith?

 

[Denver]

I think you can see mikeb768 these tend to be disputable. So let's clear it up.

Is there any prophecy in there that you'd like to put forward that is coming up, in a reasonable amount of time, that we could agree on and then test?

I'm guessing you realize what it means that you are avoiding answering this.

 

[Scorpion]

Not sure I follow, the Quran contains a lie because of something found in the Bible?

Also a similar question for you, something I have written about in a previous post. "Why didn't Muhammad copy the mistakes which are found in the Bible as well?"

I have pointed out elswhere that the quran does copy mistakes in the bible.
The classic one being that both the bible and quran say that the age of Noah when he died was 950 years. But this is now thought to be a translation error in the bible made by an early scribe who did not understand the ancient numbering system. Never the less the quran copies this bible error exactly.