HOW MANY Jews died...

[rikzilla]

Gee,

AUP is just soooo much better at this KOA. You should get together with him sometime and take a lesson or two in hard-hitting yet subtle anti-semitism 101. I believe the first chapter is on the importance of hiding one's motives in a plausable way.

-z

 

[phildonnia]

...
Because when we have that number, then we can apply it to what Israel has amassed since then, and see if they are still in the 'red' persay.

At 'some' point they should be paid off, and no longer rely on the U.N. or the U.S. for financial or militarial support.

Hang on, you think the financial and military support to Israel is in repayment for the holocaust?

 

[The Fool]

Gee,

AUP is just soooo much better at this KOA. You should get together with him sometime and take a lesson or two in hard-hitting yet subtle anti-semitism 101. I believe the first chapter is on the importance of hiding one's motives in a plausable way.

-z

I often wonder how you rationalise this garbage rick.....What is it about anti-semitism that makes you quite comfortable to accuse people of it without the slightest effort to show evidence or even to be remotely specific in what a_u_p said that was anti-semitic. Do you think this is consistant with (claiming) skepticism?

You remind me of so many of the loonie true believers we get here, always ranting about the vast body of evidence that supports thier claims but always vanishing when asked to give specific examples.. Maybe cleo tips you off with the names of suspects when she uses her sixth sense to sniff out anti-semites before they have a chance to say anything anti-semitic? Do you get the same "feelings" that she claims absolve her from the requirements of supporting her claims?

Ok, you've been asked for examples...time to vanish now.

 

[Jon_in_london]

I dont think it can be disputed that a hell of a lot of Jews were murdered by tha Nazis in the death-camps.

To suggest that the US only supports Israel because of the holocaust is chincanery- the US supports Israel because they were/are anti-communist and also because there is a substantial and influential Jewish lobby within the US. It has precious little to do with democracy. The US has been more than happy to support dictators and tyrants when it has been politik and economik to do so.

In terms of generating anti-semetism: I think we should be carefull that the intense focus on the anti-semetic aspect of WWII does not become overpowering. The allies did not go to war to protect the Jews- there seems to be a growing misconception that the over-riding purpose of the war was to save the Jews whereas the true purpose was to prevent the world slipping into a "new dark age", global enslavement at the hands of the forces of unspeakable evil. This is evidenced by the growing provocation of guilt that the UK/US bomber forces didnt hit Auschwitz when doing so would not just have been wastefull and impractical but at best a tertiary war-aim

Let us not forget that millions of Russians, Gypsies and Homosexuals also persihed in the desth-camps. Even the German work-shy, mentally ill and disabled dies in vast numbers in Nazi camps and "hospitals". I personally resent the fact that these other groups are rarely remebered when the press and politicans speak about the Holocaust.

 

[Skeptic]

Re: Re: To aerocontrols:

10 (or 12, I seem to find conflicting info) members of the 120-member Israeli Knesset are Arabs.

Probably this has to do with the fact that it depends on the definition. First, not all non-jews in the knesset are Arabs. Some are Druze, which for historical reasons are sometimes counted as a seperate category. Second, not all Arabs in the knesset are in members of Arab political parties; some are members of (mostly) jewish parties.

In any rate, the "missing" part in this "objective" discussion is that the US help to israel has something to do with israel being surrounded by genocidal Arab states which want it destroyed. To argue that the US should not "encourage hatered towards jews" by showing "partiality" to israel is like saying that the police should not "encourage hatered toward women" by showing "partiality" to women who call 911 to complain of rape over the rapists.

 

[varwoche]

Re: To varwoche:

"Ignorant" I'll give you, but "shockingly" so...?

On what scale?

On a scale of 1 to n, n.

 

[billydkid]

Re: Re: HOW MANY Jews died...

You seem to be assuming the only reason for aid to Israel is the Holocause. In my view, Israel should receive financial and military aid, if for no other reason, because it's the only democracy in the region.

Wait, wait, wait....I am not anti-Israel, but they are as much a democracy as South Africa was during the apartheid era. Futhermore, democracy in an of itself is an assurance of nothing.

 

[American]

20 trillion Jews died when George Bush's great great grandfather assassinated Duke Nicholas to start World War I and then stole the Soviet party's election for Stalin, which sent the German economy into despair and allowed Hitler to gain power in the 1930s. The same thing will happen now that we didn't elect John Kerry who would stop global warming and let gays marry to stop overpopulation and educate teens, poor women, and stupid minorities that you need to use condoms because AIDS is a big threat to everyone, not just fags and junkies.

 

[Someone]

Lebanon is also a democracy and functions and such, provided no policy adopted involves anything anti-Syrian. But given a fairly public campaign against the Syrian military and police presence, Lebanon is utterly democratic given the region. And Egypt does have multiparty elections, but a certain National Democratic Party has a stunning ability to win them utterly, if not, the opposition will defect to them in suitably large numbers (I read of that though strange it sounds). But aside from the usual list of dictators, a combination of actual democracies like Lebanon and the more liberal Gulf region emirates, possibly Iraq (though not yet imo), and the periodic forays into democracy by Arab monarchies, means the overall picture is not so bad.

And if anyone wishes to avoid the bother of overwhelming evidence regarding the Holocaust, a person can always go to Stormfront to play with the numbers. The thread starter was not necessarily doing, but his choice of title and starting question/suggestion were very dubious.

 

[King of the Americas]

Wait a second...

...I am NOT an anti-semite, nor am I opposed to the state of Israel's existance. Moreover, I completely and totally GET that the Holocaust happened, to Jews and the rest of the undesirables. I have never and would never consider myself a Holocaust denier.

That said, I have some conceeding to do, in regards to my perceptions of Israel. My understandings were NOT accurate, especially in regards to the make-up of the voting citizenery and their elected officials. Israel IS a Democracy, not unlike the U.S.'s, in that it is made up of the majority of its citizens. My attaching the "Theocratic" label was wrong.

Now, I DO still believe that much of the resentment toward the U.S. is based on our 'perceived' unbalanced support toward and for Israel.

My point in the post was one considering a point a fellow movie goer pointed out about the Holocaust, that the actual number of individuals who suffered at the hands of the Nazis DOES matter.

If we don't have a grasp of the actual facts of this matter, then how can we expect to achieve sincere retribution? We DO give Israel moneys because of the Holocaust, still. We do not only support them because they are a Democracy. Israel holds that the Holocaust is still going on, and that they are under constant threat of annihalation. So I have heard their leaders say...

Israel gets 'help', both economic and military, from the U.S. & the U.N. for injustices both past and present against the Jews. At some point, these things should be resolved and made amended to a conclusion. At some point Israel should be paid off...and made to stand on its own, working 'with' its neighbors, rather than against them.

Until this conclusion is reached, the U.S. will suffer from terrorists hands that deem our support for Israel, as uneven.

 

[Jocko]

Why would the US pay off a German war atrocity? You've overcome the basic truth of the Israeli governement's structure, so why not tackle this unsupported little claim that everyone pays off Israel out of guilt? Says who? Why? Your opinion, by itself, ain't worth squat, bud.

Also, please explain how "fairer" treatment will reduce terrorism here? Remember, bin Laden claimed the US presence in Saudi as his excuse for 9/11. No Jews involved there at all, so how do you reach that conclusion? BTW, we've all heard the rhetoric from Arab states about it. I'd be more interested in something reflecting actions, not just empty words.

 

[rikzilla]

I often wonder how you rationalise this garbage rick.....What is it about anti-semitism that makes you quite comfortable to accuse people of it without the slightest effort to show evidence or even to be remotely specific in what a_u_p said that was anti-semitic. Do you think this is consistant with (claiming) skepticism?

You remind me of so many of the loonie true believers we get here, always ranting about the vast body of evidence that supports thier claims but always vanishing when asked to give specific examples.. Maybe cleo tips you off with the names of suspects when she uses her sixth sense to sniff out anti-semites before they have a chance to say anything anti-semitic? Do you get the same "feelings" that she claims absolve her from the requirements of supporting her claims?

Ok, you've been asked for examples...time to vanish now.

You need to read Shermer . If you were really much of a serious skeptic though you already would be acquainted with his work.

Shermer lays bare the techniques of the deniers and anti-semites. That's how I "sniff them out"....so give it a read Fool. It's really a very interesting book, and Shermer's no fool*.

-z

*Edited to add; Sorry, the pun was unintentional....and bad...but it was spontaneous and fitting, so I left it in!

 

[Lucky]

From King of the Americas:
So HOW MANY actually died, were murdered, were held in sub-human conditions, or worked like so many slaves? Are those numbers available, and in today's litigious society could we attach a value to that pain and suffering. Because when we have that number, then we can apply it to what Israel has amassed since then, and see if they are still in the 'red' persay.

I think if you were to be honest you'd call Israel a "Theocratic" Democracy, since you have to be Jewish to live and vote there

from billydkid:
I am not anti-Israel, but they are as much a democracy as South Africa was during the apartheid era.

Pardon me, but when I hear or read such ludicrously false and ignorant anti-Israel or Holocaust-denying statements I cannot avoid suspecting the person responsible of anti-semitism, whether conscious or unconscious. As a Jew, I then find it difficult to take that person’s views on Jewish issues seriously, or continue a rational and temperate discussion (I’m funny that way).

I certainly do not wish to write either of you off as irredeemable anti-semitic bigots, and I do think it’s important for people of opposing views on these issues to maintain a dialogue. But you must be aware of the implications of ill-informed criticism of Israel, or of other countries’ policies towards Israel (well-informed criticism is another matter, and to be welcomed).

After all, no bigot believes himself to be bigoted; his prejudice is always justified by his false beliefs. Many Germans in the 1930s rationalised their bigotry something like this:

I’m not anti-Jewish; I’m sure some of them are decent people. I’d have nothing against them but the fact is that they control the economy and run it for their own ends. And they’re all members of the international communist conspiracy to destroy Germany. They’re a nation within a nation; I’m just being realistic in recognising the danger.

 

[varwoche]

Lucky, I don't see much relevence in posters' ethnicity. Since you do, I'll share with you that I'm also jewish (ethnic, not religious).

That said, can you explain how it is that billykid's comment is anti-semitic?

I consider Israel to be on the path to an apartheid state. Does that make me anti-semitic?

 

[Cleon]

Pardon me, but when I hear or read such ludicrously false and ignorant anti-Israel or Holocaust-denying statements I cannot avoid suspecting the person responsible of anti-semitism, whether conscious or unconscious. As a Jew, I then find it difficult to take that person’s views on Jewish issues seriously, or continue a rational and temperate discussion (I’m funny that way).

Odd, I'm Jewish as well and completely in agreement with bllydkid's sentiment.

Zionism--political support for Israel--is not synonymous with Judaism. Never has been, never will be. Nor should it be. Anti-Israel comments are not by nature anti-Semitic.

 

[Lucky]

From varwoche:
Lucky, I don't see much relevence in posters' ethnicity. Since you do, I'll share with you that I'm also jewish (ethnic, not religious).

That said, can you explain how it is that billykid's comment is anti-semitic?

I consider Israel to be on the path to an apartheid state. Does that make me anti-semitic?

So, I perceive a poster’s views to be (perhaps unconsciously) anti-semitic, and it should make no difference to my reaction that I am a Jew, an object of that person’s prejudice, and possibly hatred? Like BPSCG in this thread, your post ‘suddenly crystallized something for me’: in this case, how sheltered US Jews are from anti-semitism. For UK Jews it has a reality that I don’t suppose you can imagine (details supplied on request).

Now, when composing my post I originally put ‘anti-semitic, anti-Israel or Holocaust-denying statements’. I then realised that the statements I was quoting were not overtly anti-semitic, and, in any case, my point was that the statements were perhaps indicating an underlying prejudice. So I removed the phrase ‘anti-semitic’ from my analysis of the comments before posting, but you quoted it anyway!

So, Israel now is ‘as much a democracy as South Africa was during the apartheid era’. At best, this is a gross exaggeration. In innumerable ways too obvious to be worth stating, it is factually incorrect. If it is meant to be taken as a metaphor, a warning, rather than literally (and that would be absolutely justified, in my opinion), then that should have been stated. To say ‘you are in danger of becoming as bad as apartheid South Africa; you must change; I say this as your friend’ is not at all the same as saying ‘you are just like apartheid South Africa and I hate you accordingly’.

By the way, if you are halachically Jewish (or, as I’m Reform, just Jewish by descent in any way) then, unless you tell me otherwise, I do regard you as a fellow Jew. And, yes, it makes a little bit of difference, just like meeting a fellow Brit in a foreign country, even though they might be a Thatcherite or a Coldplay fan.


Cleon: the same goes for you, of course, and nothing you can do about that.

Me:
well-informed criticism is another matter, and to be welcomed


You:
Anti-Israel comments are not by nature anti-Semitic.

Echo.

 

[hodgy]

Re: To Donks:

How much money do we 'give' France, the U.K., or Canada?

I don't think you give anything to England - we pay our own way.

 

[billydkid]

Wait a second

Pardon me, but when I hear or read such ludicrously false and ignorant anti-Israel or Holocaust-denying statements I cannot avoid suspecting the person responsible of anti-semitism, whether conscious or unconscious. As a Jew, I then find it difficult to take that person’s views on Jewish issues seriously, or continue a rational and temperate discussion (I’m funny that way).

I certainly do not wish to write either of you off as irredeemable anti-semitic bigots, and I do think it’s important for people of opposing views on these issues to maintain a dialogue. But you must be aware of the implications of ill-informed criticism of Israel, or of other countries’ policies towards Israel (well-informed criticism is another matter, and to be welcomed).

After all, no bigot believes himself to be bigoted; his prejudice is always justified by his false beliefs. Many Germans in the 1930s rationalised their bigotry something like this:

I’m not anti-Jewish; I’m sure some of them are decent people. I’d have nothing against them but the fact is that they control the economy and run it for their own ends. And they’re all members of the international communist conspiracy to destroy Germany. They’re a nation within a nation; I’m just being realistic in recognising the danger.

As a matter of fact I am not completely insignificantly Jewish myself on my mothers side. That being said - in my humble opinion the notion of a religious or an ethnic state is just wrong. I will not ever apologize for believing that. I don't care whether it is muslim or christian or jewish or anything else. And a state who's over-riding intention is to maintain its ethnic purity is not a noble thing. I lost my ethnic purity a long, long time ago. I can live with it.

I am not very learned about middle eastern politics, but if I understand correctly, a significant portion of the inhabitants of the lands now identified as Israel do not have citizenship and can not vote. How that can be called a democracy in any genuine sense is beyond me. If I am wrong about this, my mistake.

I have never been and never will be a big fan of ethnic exclusivity - Hitler's brand or anyone else's - and noone will ever, ever convince me that that sort of mentality is in any way shape or form a good thing. I believe all the suffering in the world has its roots in an us/them mentality.

I never remotely denied the holocaust. You have the gall to lump me in with those non-jewish germans who condoned the holocaust because I suggested that Israel was not truly a democracy. Being Jewish is not identical with being Israeli and I am fairly sure not all Jews identify heart and soul with the Political State of Israel.

 

[Cleon]

Re: Wait a second

As a matter of fact I am not completely insignificantly Jewish myself on my mothers side. That being said - in my humble opinion the notion of a religious or an ethnic state is just wrong. I will not ever apologize for believing that. I don't care whether it is muslim or christian or jewish or anything else. And a state who's over-riding intention is to maintain its ethnic purity is not a noble thing. I lost my ethnic purity a long, long time ago. I can live with it.

I am not very learned about middle eastern politics, but if I understand correctly, a significant portion of the inhabitants of the lands now identified as Israel do not have citizenship and can not vote. How that can be called a democracy in any genuine sense is beyond me. If I am wrong about this, my mistake.

I have never been and never will be a big fan of ethnic exclusivity - Hitler's brand or anyone else's - and noone will ever, ever convince me that that sort of mentality is in any way shape or form a good thing. I believe all the suffering in the world has its roots in an us/them mentality.

I never remotely denied the holocaust. You have the gall to lump me in with those non-jewish germans who condoned the holocaust because I suggested that Israel was not truly a democracy. Being Jewish is not identical with being Israeli and I am fairly sure not all Jews identify heart and soul with the Political State of Israel.

PREACH IT, BROTHER! AMEN!

 

[The Fool]

You need to read Shermer . If you were really much of a serious skeptic though you already would be acquainted with his work.

Shermer lays bare the techniques of the deniers and anti-semites. That's how I "sniff them out"....so give it a read Fool. It's really a very interesting book, and Shermer's no fool*.

-z

*Edited to add; Sorry, the pun was unintentional....and bad...but it was spontaneous and fitting, so I left it in!

cool, does Shermers book point out the words that support your accusation of racism?

I'm guessing not....
so until it does, shermers book is no more supportive of your claims than your non existant examples....

I'll try my best to become a true scotsman and read his book....after I have read it will I also be able to "sniff out" and accuse people of racism without providing evidence or even a single example of a supposedly racist comment ?